4D Remote and it's a whole new world

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4D Remote and it's a whole new world

bob.miller
Hi Everyone,

I'm converting things from 4D 2004 to v13 and am now getting close to
deployment.  There are hurdles to complete, though, and one of them is:
what ever happed to good old 4D Client?

I'm digging through the 4D v13 Design Reference that describes how to
build a client application and a server application, but for now, I don't
want to "merge" my structure file with anything.

I'm clear on 4D Developer's capability to connect to a remote database,
but I don't want to give out 4D Developer to my users because (a) it
requires its own license; (b) it allows them to create a new database; and
(c) it is HUGE - 498MB.

I've dug through the 4D download site and can't find anything called '4D
Remote'.

Again, I'm seeking a thin client, a la 4DClient, that can connect to a 4D
server and run my application.  Later I will look into "built" server and
client applications, but there are too many variables in that route for me
to deal with now (example: some clients use Remote Desktop, and do not
have permission to the directory where 4D Client is installed).

Can anyone steer me in the right direction to find what I need?

Many thanks,

Bob Miller
Chomerics, a division of Parker Hannifin Corporation


"PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or
privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for the purpose
of conducting business with Parker. If you are not an intended
recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message and
then delete the information from your system. Thank you for your
cooperation."

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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Guy Algot
Sorry Bob, it's gone (starting with v11 I think, but I went directly to 12). I, too, missed the demise of the 'client' but its the full app now with all its options and size. However, it doesn't need its own license. Like the old 'client' you can install it on many machines and still connect to your server. You'll become familiar with link files now...

  _____  

From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:37:36 -0700
Subject: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Hi Everyone,
 
  I'm converting things from 4D 2004 to v13 and am now getting close to
  deployment.  There are hurdles to complete, though, and one of them is:
  what ever happed to good old 4D Client?
 
  I'm digging through the 4D v13 Design Reference that describes how to
  build a client application and a server application, but for now, I don't
  want to "merge" my structure file with anything.
 
  I'm clear on 4D Developer's capability to connect to a remote database,
  but I don't want to give out 4D Developer to my users because (a) it
  requires its own license; (b) it allows them to create a new database; and
  (c) it is HUGE - 498MB.
 
  I've dug through the 4D download site and can't find anything called '4D
  Remote'.
 
  Again, I'm seeking a thin client, a la 4DClient, that can connect to a 4D
  server and run my application.  Later I will look into "built" server and
  client applications, but there are too many variables in that route for me
  to deal with now (example: some clients use Remote Desktop, and do not
  have permission to the directory where 4D Client is installed).
 
  Can anyone steer me in the right direction to find what I need?
 
  Many thanks,
 
  Bob Miller
  Chomerics, a division of Parker Hannifin Corporation
 

   

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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Jeffrey Kain
In reply to this post by bob.miller
4D Remote is 4D.

On Dec 18, 2013, at 3:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm converting things from 4D 2004 to v13 and am now getting close to
> deployment.  There are hurdles to complete, though, and one of them is:
> what ever happed to good old 4D Client?

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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Adam Bevan
In reply to this post by bob.miller
Since v11 the 4D Remote is part of the 4D application.
It allows you to open a remote or local application.

If you don't build your application you can run the 4D application as a client.
As Guy says you don't need a license to connect to a server.

You can also build your 4D application which can create an equivalent of a 4D Client application.

When I build my application, I tell it to build a 'client' application.
If it also includes the upgrade archives in the built server application it's easy enough to remove.
Just delete 'Upgrade4DClient' folder beside the 'Server Database' folder.

Below is the windows BuildApp.xml tags I use to create a windows 4D Client for my 4D Server.

<Preferences4D>
<BuildApp>
<SourcesFiles>
<CS>
        <ClientWinIncludeIt>True<ClientWinIncludeIt>
        <ClientWinFolderToWin>\4th Dimension\4D Volume Desktop\<ClientWinFolderToWin>
</CS>
</SourcesFiles>
</BuildApp>
</Preferences4D>

On 12-18-2013, at 1:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm converting things from 4D 2004 to v13 and am now getting close to
> deployment.  There are hurdles to complete, though, and one of them is:
> what ever happed to good old 4D Client?
>
> I'm digging through the 4D v13 Design Reference that describes how to
> build a client application and a server application, but for now, I don't
> want to "merge" my structure file with anything.
>
> I'm clear on 4D Developer's capability to connect to a remote database,
> but I don't want to give out 4D Developer to my users because (a) it
> requires its own license; (b) it allows them to create a new database; and
> (c) it is HUGE - 498MB.
>
> I've dug through the 4D download site and can't find anything called '4D
> Remote'.
>
> Again, I'm seeking a thin client, a la 4DClient, that can connect to a 4D
> server and run my application.  Later I will look into "built" server and
> client applications, but there are too many variables in that route for me
> to deal with now (example: some clients use Remote Desktop, and do not
> have permission to the directory where 4D Client is installed).
>
> Can anyone steer me in the right direction to find what I need?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Bob Miller
> Chomerics, a division of Parker Hannifin Corporation

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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Julio Carneiro
In reply to this post by bob.miller
Bob,

The good old 4D Client is now merged with the good old 4D, and is now known as 4D Developer.

You now use 4D Developer to connect to 4D Server. And no, you do not need a license for that, all you need is your 4D Server license.
When you use 4D Developer to connect to 4D Server it uses that server's license.

And yes, they could create a new local database, if they had a 4D developer license or get a trial license themselves.

You can get the good old 4D Client by generating a built server/client pair. That is easy to do and it uses the same server license you have.
That will give you a lean 4D Client, one which will auto connect to your built 4D Server and only to that server.

A bit of a change but one you have the build set up, it is pretty much an automatic process.

julio

On Dec 18, 2013, at 6:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm converting things from 4D 2004 to v13 and am now getting close to
> deployment.  There are hurdles to complete, though, and one of them is:
> what ever happed to good old 4D Client?
>
> I'm digging through the 4D v13 Design Reference that describes how to
> build a client application and a server application, but for now, I don't
> want to "merge" my structure file with anything.
>
> I'm clear on 4D Developer's capability to connect to a remote database,
> but I don't want to give out 4D Developer to my users because (a) it
> requires its own license; (b) it allows them to create a new database; and
> (c) it is HUGE - 498MB.
>
> I've dug through the 4D download site and can't find anything called '4D
> Remote'.
>
> Again, I'm seeking a thin client, a la 4DClient, that can connect to a 4D
> server and run my application.  Later I will look into "built" server and
> client applications, but there are too many variables in that route for me
> to deal with now (example: some clients use Remote Desktop, and do not
> have permission to the directory where 4D Client is installed).
>
> Can anyone steer me in the right direction to find what I need?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Bob Miller
> Chomerics, a division of Parker Hannifin Corporation
>
>
> "PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or
> privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for the purpose
> of conducting business with Parker. If you are not an intended
> recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message and
> then delete the information from your system. Thank you for your
> cooperation."
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
> your applications richer and faster
> http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
>
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************


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RE: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Timothy Penner
In reply to this post by bob.miller
Hi Bob,

If your 4D folder (on windows) is 498 MB you probably have the Documentation (278 MB) inside the 4D folder. I would consider the documentation is more for the developer and not the end-user; so you could probably remove that folder to reduce the size by more than 50%.

-Tim






-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 12:38 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Hi Everyone,

I'm converting things from 4D 2004 to v13 and am now getting close to deployment.  There are hurdles to complete, though, and one of them is:
what ever happed to good old 4D Client?

I'm digging through the 4D v13 Design Reference that describes how to build a client application and a server application, but for now, I don't want to "merge" my structure file with anything.

I'm clear on 4D Developer's capability to connect to a remote database, but I don't want to give out 4D Developer to my users because (a) it requires its own license; (b) it allows them to create a new database; and
(c) it is HUGE - 498MB.

I've dug through the 4D download site and can't find anything called '4D Remote'.

Again, I'm seeking a thin client, a la 4DClient, that can connect to a 4D server and run my application.  Later I will look into "built" server and client applications, but there are too many variables in that route for me to deal with now (example: some clients use Remote Desktop, and do not have permission to the directory where 4D Client is installed).

Can anyone steer me in the right direction to find what I need?

Many thanks,

Bob Miller
Chomerics, a division of Parker Hannifin Corporation


"PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for the purpose of conducting business with Parker. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message and then delete the information from your system. Thank you for your cooperation."



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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Peter Jakobsson-2

On 18 Dec 2013, at 23:00, Timothy Penner wrote:

> If your 4D folder (on windows) is 498 MB you probably have the Documentation (278 MB) inside the 4D folder. I would consider the documentation is more for the developer and not the end-user; so you could probably remove that folder to reduce the size by more than 50%.

Wow. That's a gem.

I never even knew that. I'll have to scrawl that information somewhere and keep it in my back pocket till my next remote Windows installation. (Hopefully it won't be chromatography by then).

Peter


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RE: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Joshua Fletcher
In reply to this post by Julio Carneiro
>



-----Original Message-----
> The good old 4D Client is now merged with the good old 4D, and is now
> known as 4D Developer.

This isn't really accurate.  The software is called "4D".  "4D Developer" is part of the name of a license, not software. I may be nitpicking, sorry, just want to be clear.

> That will give you a lean 4D Client, one which will auto connect to your
> built 4D Server and only to that server.

4D Volume Desktop v13 (the package you use to build a merged client) is ~4 MB smaller than 4D v13.  Other versions are similarly sized. It's not really "leaner".  In fact it would make no sense for it to be "leaner" as is. I'll post a separate reply about this in a moment...

Kind regards,

Josh

--
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Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc



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RE: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Joshua Fletcher
In reply to this post by bob.miller
A bit of a rant not specifically directed at Bob, but I want the misinformation about this topic to stop.

It's a complete myth that the removal of 4D Client resulted in tremendous increase in the software size of 4D. The first flaw with the usual argument is comparing apples (e.g. 4D Client 2004) to Oranges (4D v13 in this case).  As is the nature of most things, 4D software has gotten larger with each release, but not as a result of this change. More on this later...

Here's why it's a myth: 4D Client 2003 was less than a megabyte smaller than 4th Dimension 2003.  4D Client 2004 was EXACTLY THE SAME SIZE as 4th Dimension 2004 if you remove the templates.  In fact it doesn't really make any sense that "4D Client" would be significantly smaller. 4D and 4D Client both did the same things.  They accessed data files (the local copies of the structure that 4D Client accessed were/are data files; they require the DB engine).  They could both be used for development.  They both executed the same commands.  This is one of the many reasons to remove this completely redundant software.

The increasing size of 4D comes from several factors:

-New features
-Increased size of old libraries
-The addition of new libraries (webkit and spellchecking for example; the spellchecker resources are particularly large)
-Support for multiple architectures (PPC and Intel for OS X, for a while)
-Etc.

Yes, 4D has gotten larger over time but it's not because 4D Client was "removed".

By the way, 4D v14 is 10 MB smaller than 4D v13 (largely because of the removal of the old spellchecker in favor of Hunspell).

On the other hand I am fully supportive of a more efficient build process, one that might strip out unused libraries for example.  But this kind of thing is a represents a huge testing burden so it would definitely have a "cost"; it's a big risk to the stability of 4D.  I'm not sure it's worth the payoff of saving a few MB.

Kind regards,

Josh

--
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Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc






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RE: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Joshua Fletcher
In reply to this post by bob.miller
> I've dug through the 4D download site and can't find anything called '4D
> Remote'.

FWIW, the correct terminology is 4D in "local mode", or 4D in "remote mode". This should help you when searching the docs and such.

Kind regards,

Josh

--
Josh Fletcher
Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc






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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Keisuke Miyako
In reply to this post by Julio Carneiro
Just yesterday I was at a customer's site, a 4D developer for 20 years,
he had a bug (record locking) which was only reproducible on Client/Server, only when compiled.

So I asked him to run the server interpreted,
I connected, found the problem
(
        the locking dialog said the "client manager" process was locking the record;
        so I guessed the On Server Startup Database Method must be the culprit,
        and sure enough it was.
)
and here's the point,
compiled and restarted the Server from the Client.
since v11, you don't have to run standalone to compile,
and the Client can reconnect itself to the restarted server automatically.

(you obviously need the 4D *Team* Developer license)
it's a great time-saver, but the developer was unaware of this feature until now.
it's a great way to develop and test client-server compiled application.

miyako

2013/12/19 6:58、Julio Carneiro <[hidden email]> のメール:

> You now use 4D Developer to connect to 4D Server. And no, you do not need a license for that, all you need is your 4D Server license.
> When you use 4D Developer to connect to 4D Server it uses that server's license.






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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Charles Miller
In reply to this post by bob.miller
On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:37 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Again, I'm seeking a thin client, a la 4DClient, that can connect to a 4D
> server and run my application.  Later I will look into "built" server and
> client applications, but there are too many variables in that route for me
> to deal with now (example: some clients use Remote Desktop, and do not
> have permission to the directory where 4D Client is installed).
>

Hi Bob,

A few things
1. Even though you say you do not want to build, you do.
    A. Automatic client upgrades, when new stuff distributed
    B. Auto connect to last db, you c an create link document
    C. It seems painful but trust me only for a minute
    D. Never have a user try and create their own db

 2. I have found you need to place program in folder on C: drive or
elsewhere. Too many restrictions in program folder

Regards

Chuck
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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       Providers of 4D, Sybase & SQL Sever connectivity
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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Bill Weale
Bob, I also agree the gain is worth the pain.

However there are quite a few gotchas which, imo, need more documentation and in some cases, a few program enhancements which would ease a lot of the pain.

Be aware of:

Backup and other DB Settings
Preferences, both for the built clients and the built server
The "4DLink" xml file, particularly for the built clients; the content is xml, but this file can have any one of several name-extension-path combinations.

In "big-picture" general terms, both the built client and the built server are "packages" which contain 4D Server- and 4D Remote-specific settings. These will be overwritten on every update you install...

Bill

On Dec 19, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Charles Miller wrote:

>   B. Auto connect to last db, you c an create link document


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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

bob.miller
In reply to this post by bob.miller
Hello All,

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.  I think Bill Weale
said it best, "there are quite a few gotchas which, imo, need more
documentation".

I've been playing with this and have found a lot of "little things" that
are not documented.

Some of the most mystifying are these:

> In the case of a merged server application, can I simply replace the
*.4DC file in the "Server Database" folder, on the 4D Server machine, or
do I have to replace the entire contents of the "Server Database" folder
(which is much larger, and takes a lot longer to do from a remote site)?

> If I register a merged server application as a service, then update the
merged server application, do I have to unregister the "old" and then
register the "new" version?

> If I'm running 4D Server as a service, how do I do an orderly shutdown,
such as to do an update?
        > Can this be done from the MSC?

> Is there a way I can tell the full path from the point of view of the
server machine to the structure file, and to the data file?

Also, let me explain my previous use-case a little bit; maybe someone has
some counsel on this.  We don't have 4D Client (I'm going to use the 2004
terminology) installed on any client workstations - rather, every desktop
(multiple hundreds) have a shortcut to one of about 10 4D Client
installations on shared drives on file servers around the world.  None of
these users has read-write access to the folder that contains 4D, so an
automatic client update would not work.  Yes, we would have to update the
4D Client in about 10 places in case of a version change to 4D; no, we
would not want to update the same 10 places in to accommodate a merged
client because the application is revised just too often.  Hence, the
desire to have an unmerged 4D in these locations.

Given that, is there any advantage at all to having a merged server
application?  As this is an in-house application, I'm not worried about
poorly trained administrators and other remote-site problems.

My conclusions:
        > Use 4D unmerged in the shared drive locations
        > Continue to have users launch this 4D using a desktop shortcut
        > Don't use a merged server

Any thoughts on this?  I appreciate all the comments!

Bob Miller
Chomerics, a division of Parker Hannifin Corporation


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RE: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Joshua Fletcher
>



-----Original Message-----
> > In the case of a merged server application, can I simply replace the
> *.4DC file in the "Server Database" folder, on the 4D Server machine, or
> do I have to replace the entire contents of the "Server Database" folder
> (which is much larger, and takes a lot longer to do from a remote site)?

Can you?  Yes. Should you? It's not actually supported, we don't recommend it.  But a LOT of people still do this.

> > If I register a merged server application as a service, then update the
> merged server application, do I have to unregister the "old" and then
> register the "new" version?

Not sure, hopefully someone can chime it -or- just open a TS case.

> > If I'm running 4D Server as a service, how do I do an orderly shutdown,
> such as to do an update?
>         > Can this be done from the MSC?

Treat it as a Windows service.  There are already tools built into Windows to manage services either manually or from the command line.

> > Is there a way I can tell the full path from the point of view of the
> server machine to the structure file, and to the data file?

I feel like you might be asking something more complex, but have a look at:

Structure file
http://doc.4d.com/4Dv13.4/help/Command/en/page489.html

Data file
http://doc.4d.com/4Dv13.4/help/Command/en/page490.html

(and don’t forget Get 4D Folder for other stuff; lots of changes since 2004)
http://doc.4d.com/4Dv13.4/help/Command/en/page485.html

Kind regards,

Josh

--
Josh Fletcher
Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc


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RE: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

bob.miller
In reply to this post by bob.miller
> > If I'm running 4D Server as a service, how do I do an orderly
shutdown,
> such as to do an update?
>         > Can this be done from the MSC?

Josh replies:  Treat it as a Windows service.  There are already tools
built into Windows to manage services either manually or from the command
line.

Followup question: If 4D Server is running as a service, how can I tell 4D
to send a message to all users and then shut the system down in 5 minutes?
 I've been able to go into the Windows Services console and "Start" and
"Stop" the service (which works fine), but I guess I'm worried about
'under the hood' is 4D doing an orderly shutdown so as not to forget to
flush the cache, etc.?  And is there a way with such a 'headless' 4D
Server to shut down in a prescribed period of time (to give users time to
close windows, etc.....not that they ever do!)

Thanks,

Bob Miller
Chomerics, a division of Parker Hannifin Corporation


"PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or
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RE: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

bob.miller
In reply to this post by bob.miller
> > Is there a way I can tell the full path from the point of view of the
> server machine to the structure file, and to the data file?

Josh replies....I feel like you might be asking something more complex,
but have a look at <snip>...

Actually, I'm not asking for something more complex, but it is different
from what you suggested.  In the "old" 4D Server console, one could see
the name of the structure and the data file that were open; this was right
on top of the 4D Server console window.  In v13+, the only indication is
that the name of the .4DC file (example:  MyDatabase.4DC) is in the window
title of the MDI window.

What I'm after is a way I can confirm that as an administrator, (a) I can
tell one application from another, in the case of multiple 4D Server
applications being hosted on a single machine; and (b) I can verify that
I've opened the correct data file, in the case that there may be any
opportunity for error.

Yes, I can do this from a client, but ideally I'd like to be able to have
the administrator check (as a best practice) that whenever 4D Server is
started, the correct structure and database files are opened.  Structure
is pretty easy, given that I can merge the server with the structure, but
the database...how can I easily tell by looking at the 4D Server?

Bob Miller
Chomerics, a division of Parker Hannifin Corporation


"PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or
privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for the purpose
of conducting business with Parker. If you are not an intended
recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message and
then delete the information from your system. Thank you for your
cooperation."

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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Keisuke Miyako
Hello,

On the Server Admin Window, you can find the data file path and structure file path from the "Application Server" page.
Same information is also available on the MSC "Information" page.

to differentiate multiple 4D Server applications running on the same computer on Mac OS X,
you can go inside the package, edit InfoPlist.strings and add a line,
CFBundleDisplayName = "4D Server (whatever)";
this allows you to change the display name of the application without renaming the file, which can be problematic.

miyako

2013/12/20 22:41、[hidden email] のメール:

> What I'm after is a way I can confirm that as an administrator, (a) I can
> tell one application from another, in the case of multiple 4D Server
> applications being hosted on a single machine; and (b) I can verify that
> I've opened the correct data file, in the case that there may be any
> opportunity for error.






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Re: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

bob.miller
In reply to this post by bob.miller
Miyako writes > to differentiate multiple 4D Server applications running
on the same computer on Mac OS X <snip>

Is there a way to do something like this on Windows?  Having a different
name appear in Task manager would be most helpful.  Every instance appears
as "4DServer.exe"...

Many thanks for the tip on where to find the data file path!

Bob Miller
Chomerics, a division of Parker Hannifin Corporation


"PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or
privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for the purpose
of conducting business with Parker. If you are not an intended
recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message and
then delete the information from your system. Thank you for your
cooperation."

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RE: 4D Remote and it's a whole new world

Joshua Fletcher
> Given that, is there any advantage at all to having a merged server application?

Here's one :)
|
V

> Is there a way to do something like this on Windows?  Having a different
> name appear in Task manager would be most helpful.

-Josh

--
Josh Fletcher
Technical Account Manager
4D, Inc






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