Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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For many projects, I’m working with a larger team where the precise size of fonts and other stylesheet details are already decided. In this case, I’m designing new forms and optimizing some old ones via Windows 10 (for a legacy application that looks like it ran on a Mac Plus) and I wanted to make a wise choice about an approach with respect to: stylesheets; optimal fonts and sizes for each platform and what to do about form scaling, if anything. I’ve never thought much about the form scaling feature of 4D but it seems like scaling is always in effect with a default of  "Windows to Mac (75%)”.

Form Scaling... Is this still a thing? :)

While converting a v11-based structure to v17 that started life on a Mac many years before, I noticed that most forms seemed rather small on Windows (currently the only destination platform but I don’t want to exclude Mac clients). At first, the 133% increase in form size seemed seemed to fit the bill (if not slightly large). One issue I noticed is that the glass button graphics are obviously scaled beyond the bitmap (meaning that these buttons only look sharp at 48X48 and all standard 4D buttons are this size). I’ve never noticed scaling artifacts on other projects.

V17 Default Stylesheet
Windows 7 & 8 (Segoe UI, 12 point)
Windows Classic (MS Sans Serif, 12 point)
OS X (Lucida Grande, 13 point)

Regarding the default stylesheet, what is “Windows Classic” and what stylesheet would Windows 10 use?

Which Windows fonts and sizes do you find optimal for your 4D applications? Do you use explicit stylesheets? Do you use automatic stylesheets too?  Scaling other than 133%? I saw recently where 125% was considered optimal. I appreciate your thoughts on modern, high-quality form design.

Thanks,

Robert





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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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I really like to use “automatic” style sheet for all my forms.

There’s also automatic (additional) which is great for smaller text 11

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 at 09:43, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> For many projects, I’m working with a larger team where the precise size
> of fonts and other stylesheet details are already decided. In this case,
> I’m designing new forms and optimizing some old ones via Windows 10 (for a
> legacy application that looks like it ran on a Mac Plus) and I wanted to
> make a wise choice about an approach with respect to: stylesheets; optimal
> fonts and sizes for each platform and what to do about form scaling, if
> anything. I’ve never thought much about the form scaling feature of 4D but
> it seems like scaling is always in effect with a default of  "Windows to
> Mac (75%)”.
>
> Form Scaling... Is this still a thing? :)
>
> While converting a v11-based structure to v17 that started life on a Mac
> many years before, I noticed that most forms seemed rather small on Windows
> (currently the only destination platform but I don’t want to exclude Mac
> clients). At first, the 133% increase in form size seemed seemed to fit the
> bill (if not slightly large). One issue I noticed is that the glass button
> graphics are obviously scaled beyond the bitmap (meaning that these buttons
> only look sharp at 48X48 and all standard 4D buttons are this size). I’ve
> never noticed scaling artifacts on other projects.
>
> V17 Default Stylesheet
> Windows 7 & 8 (Segoe UI, 12 point)
> Windows Classic (MS Sans Serif, 12 point)
> OS X (Lucida Grande, 13 point)
>
> Regarding the default stylesheet, what is “Windows Classic” and what
> stylesheet would Windows 10 use?
>
> Which Windows fonts and sizes do you find optimal for your 4D
> applications? Do you use explicit stylesheets? Do you use automatic
> stylesheets too?  Scaling other than 133%? I saw recently where 125% was
> considered optimal. I appreciate your thoughts on modern, high-quality form
> design.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
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--

Regards,

Wayne
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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list

> 2018/11/11 7:43、Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>のメール:
>
> Form Scaling... Is this still a thing? :)

The feature was originally introduced to compensate for the DPI difference (72 on Mac, 96 on Windows).

There is an interesting background story on why the 2 camps decided on a different DPI.
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/fontblog/2005/11/08/where-does-96-dpi-come-from-in-windows/

The idea back then was that you take an existing form,
duplicate it (unless you intend to discontinue support for the original platform),
then scale it,
so that the form looks approximately the same size when displayed on a similar monitor.

It made more sense when monitors were VGA.

Today it is better to use the same form for both platforms and use only automatic stylesheets.

> Regarding the default stylesheet, what is “Windows Classic” and what stylesheet would Windows 10 use?

This stylesheet is selected when the Windows "Theme" preference is set to "Classic".
A different (legacy) set of APIs is used to render UI elements.
You typically see this on a Windows Server which has limited graphic capabilities.

Contrary to popular thinking, the classic theme is less efficient, despite the simplistic design,
because it does not take advantage of modern hardware graphic optimisation.

> I saw recently where 125% was considered optimal. I

the OS proposes a different DPI depending on hardware capability.
125% is typical of a non-4K laptop.

4D forms are not DPI aware (well, the CEF web area is, but it must be suppressed to fit in 4D's UI system)
so any scaling forced by the system, would look blurred; although it would be less noticeable with 125%.




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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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The Automatic style sheet on Mac still pick the wrong font on 10.11 and later.  It uses Helvetica Neue instead of San Francisco.  

And among other gripes, the search widget from the object library is very out of date also, style wise.  Lucida Grande, sunken rounded edges, etc.  

> On Nov 18, 2018, at 11:46 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> 2018/11/11 7:43、Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>のメール:
>>
>> Form Scaling... Is this still a thing? :)
>
> The feature was originally introduced to compensate for the DPI difference (72 on Mac, 96 on Windows).
>
> There is an interesting background story on why the 2 camps decided on a different DPI.
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/fontblog/2005/11/08/where-does-96-dpi-come-from-in-windows/
>
> The idea back then was that you take an existing form,
> duplicate it (unless you intend to discontinue support for the original platform),
> then scale it,
> so that the form looks approximately the same size when displayed on a similar monitor.
>
> It made more sense when monitors were VGA.
>
> Today it is better to use the same form for both platforms and use only automatic stylesheets.
>
>> Regarding the default stylesheet, what is “Windows Classic” and what stylesheet would Windows 10 use?
>
> This stylesheet is selected when the Windows "Theme" preference is set to "Classic".
> A different (legacy) set of APIs is used to render UI elements.
> You typically see this on a Windows Server which has limited graphic capabilities.
>
> Contrary to popular thinking, the classic theme is less efficient, despite the simplistic design,
> because it does not take advantage of modern hardware graphic optimisation.
>
>> I saw recently where 125% was considered optimal. I
>
> the OS proposes a different DPI depending on hardware capability.
> 125% is typical of a non-4K laptop.
>
> 4D forms are not DPI aware (well, the CEF web area is, but it must be suppressed to fit in 4D's UI system)
> so any scaling forced by the system, would look blurred; although it would be less noticeable with 125%.
>
>
>
>
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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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are you sure?

just tested, OBJECT Get font on an automatic stylesheet object returns

.SF NS Text

as for the search widget, it was released with v12 so the stylesheet is "Default", not automatic.
but I agree, it's badly designed.

2018/11/19 23:46、Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>のメール:
The Automatic style sheet on Mac still pick the wrong font on 10.11 and later.  It uses Helvetica Neue instead of San Francisco.



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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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Yes - referring to the built in style sheet called Automatic.  You need to make a new style sheet that uses the system fonts to get the correct one.

> On Nov 19, 2018, at 9:50 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> are you sure?
>
> just tested, OBJECT Get font on an automatic stylesheet object returns
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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
I showed a scaled up version of a few forms, during a migration to v17 and later I decided to move everything to automatic stylesheets as recommended by Keisuke that this is best practices now. So, Jefferey, are you using automatic stylesheets?  

What determines the font size of automatic style sheets?  In Windows 10, what should that size be…?

I have a client that kinda liked the scaled up larger forms…. I moved away from that because of the “best practices” suggestions here and because the button graphics were also scaled and did not look as sharp.

This is a screenshot of the current size, it does not look too small to me.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f24b4xukcm28il9/Screenshot%202018-12-06%2018.32.29.png?dl=0 <https://www.dropbox.com/s/f24b4xukcm28il9/Screenshot%202018-12-06%2018.32.29.png?dl=0>

I appreciate your input.

Thanks,

Robert

> On Nov 19, 2018, at 8:46 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The Automatic style sheet on Mac still pick the wrong font on 10.11 and later.  It uses Helvetica Neue instead of San Francisco.  

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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
The “Automatic” setting appears to be using Segoe UI 12 as a default. I also see “Automatic (Main)” which has a default of 16 point. The sweet spot for this Windows interface might be 13 point font; yet, it’s my understanding that any font-size over-rides on a particular object drops the dynamic behavior, and key benefit, of the automatic style sheet. So, please tell me how you use the automatic stylesheet. I didn’t notice originally that there was a “main" and an “additional” automatic stylesheets (so 3 in total). In the past I used custom stylesheets and never used the automatic. Now, I’d like to understand it better so that I can apply this more effectively.

From the manual: "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as its size and color. If you modify one of the properties managed by an automatic style sheet in the Form editor, this style sheet no longer works dynamically. However, you can apply custom style properties (Bold, Italic or Underline) without altering its functioning.”

Thanks,

Robert

=======================
Robert Broussard
Houston, TX
=======================

> On Nov 18, 2018, at 11:46 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Today it is better to use... only automatic stylesheets.

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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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I have a followup question:
if you can not apply a color to the style sheet then that would mean
manually (programmatically) applying a color to every object on a form
every time the form is displayed. --  A PITA to be sure.
BUT..
once a color is applied via code (Object Set Color, or Object Set RGB
Color) does THIS also break the automatic style sheet functionality?

Chip

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 18:49:11 -0600, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech wrote:
>
> From the manual: "Automatic style sheets manage the font as well as
> its size and color. If you modify one of the properties managed by an
> automatic style sheet in the Form editor, this style sheet no longer
> works dynamically. However, you can apply custom style properties
> (Bold, Italic or Underline) without altering its functioning.”
---------------
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4D Structure Export...

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There are a couple of recent posts on the 4D Blog related to exporting 4D methods and forms as text as a new feature in v17R3:

https://blog.4d.com/text-files-from-your-structure-file/ <https://blog.4d.com/text-files-from-your-structure-file/> and https://blog.4d.com/a-component-to-export-the-structure-file/ <https://blog.4d.com/a-component-to-export-the-structure-file/>

I don’t have access to R releases, so I’m wondering whether anyone knows if this feature does more than the export we’ve been able to do since v12/14 via various versions of VC_Framework. Is this simply a higher level of integration with the app or does it actually offer more functionality?

I’m trying to understand how it supports team development on 4D Server. Among other things, I want to track all changes to all objects so I know who changed what and when they made the change. Reviewing the Export structure file command documentation http://doc.4d.com/4Dv17R3/4D/17-R3/Export-structure-file.301-3965587.en.html <http://doc.4d.com/4Dv17R3/4D/17-R3/Export-structure-file.301-3965587.en.html> and the table which describes the exported files, it’s not clear whether the files are tagged with 'mod date' and 'mod by' values.

In the past I have used Method_History component which is triggered by macros whenever a method is modified and saves a copy of the method to a db table (internal or external). That data could then be used to view the edit history of any method by date/time and user and compare different versions using a diff tool. It was great for code reviews and troubleshooting. I was also a good starting point when writing Release Notes.

The documentation also states:

        This command can be used in the following contexts only:
4D in local mode or 4D Server (an error is returned if it is called from 4D in remote mode)
So maybe I can’t do what I want on 4D Server? Maybe I need to have developers working with 4D in local mode?

Thanks for any comments on this or on the state in general of Version Control, Source Code Management and Release Management in 4D.

Tom Benedict


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Re: 4D Structure Export...

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Tom,

On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 10:14 AM Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>  if this feature does more than the export we’ve been able to do since
> v12/14 via various versions of VC_Framework. Is this simply a higher level
> of integration with the app or does it actually offer more functionality?
>
I'm not familiar with VC_Framework but the big improvement in R3 is the
addition of Form convert to dynamic. This allows you to export all the
forms  - not just the object and form methods. The objects created are
fully functional dynamic form objects. This is the last piece we needed to
be able to fully build a database from exported files.


> I’m trying to understand how it supports team development on 4D Server.
> Among other things, I want to track all changes to all objects so I know
> who changed what and when they made the change. Reviewing the Export
> structure file command documentation
> http://doc.4d.com/4Dv17R3/4D/17-R3/Export-structure-file.301-3965587.en.html
> <
> http://doc.4d.com/4Dv17R3/4D/17-R3/Export-structure-file.301-3965587.en.html>
> and the table which describes the exported files, it’s not clear whether
> the files are tagged with 'mod date' and 'mod by' values.
>
If it doesn't natively it's not difficult to set the created/modified dates
of the new files. I do this with method exports because the exported files
are dated with the current date/time.

For me the advantage here is being able to export all the database elements
into text files. Pretty much all the version control solutions around are
based on managing text files so this opens up a lot of options. when it
comes to identifying changes it's possible to use any number of diffing
tools. Like BBEdit or DeltaWalker, to name a couple. It's easy to diff
folders with methods or form definitions. I've done this with folders
containing thousands of methods in a couple of minutes.

I think dynamic forms are truly a game changer in the 4D world. Now that we
can export existing forms into the format required there's backward
compatibility.


--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

*We go vote - they go home*
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Re: 4D Structure Export...

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>
> On Dec 7, 2018, at 1:07 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm not familiar with VC_Framework but the big improvement in R3 is the
> addition of Form convert to dynamic. This allows you to export all the
> forms  - not just the object and form methods. The objects created are
> fully functional dynamic form objects. This is the last piece we needed to
> be able to fully build a database from exported files.


17 R3 is not quite there for exporting forms in a way that can easily be moved to another structure. Form convert to dynamic does not include the form or object method paths. I'm hoping that will change, see the recent discussion on the forum.

If you export the forms from the structure (not using Form convert to dynamic), the form/object method references are there. But I don't think you can use that to reload the form in another database because the method property can only be a project method. So to use the form in another database you would have to translate the form/object methods into a project methods somehow.


> It's easy to diff
> folders with methods or form definitions. I've done this with folders
> containing thousands of methods in a couple of minutes.

The other way to do it is to just export all the files to the same version controlled directory. The commit for each release. The version control tool will show exactly which files are changed since the last release and tracks all changes over time. For 4D, you'll just need to add something to remove methods that have been deleted or renamed. Git automatically figures out when a file has been renamed instead of deleted.


John DeSoi, Ph.D.
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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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On Dec 7, 2018, at 10:32 AM, Robert ListMail wrote:

> I showed a scaled up version of a few forms, during a migration to v17 and later I decided to move everything to automatic stylesheets as recommended by Keisuke that this is best practices now. So, Jefferey, are you using automatic stylesheets?  
>
> What determines the font size of automatic style sheets?  In Windows 10, what should that size be…?
>
> I have a client that kinda liked the scaled up larger forms…. I moved away from that because of the “best practices” suggestions here and because the button graphics were also scaled and did not look as sharp.

If you use “automatic” style sheet then every few years when Apple — or Microsoft — decides to change the default system font you are covered. Remember on the Macintosh System 1.0 the font was Chicago, then later it was Charcoal, then Lucida Grande then Helvetica Neue and now its Apple's new San Francisco.

So if 4D had style sheet support back in v2 days and you set it to “Automatic”, then as you upgraded your 4D database to new versions of 4D and you upgraded your Mac to each macOS version, the font would have automatically changed without you doing anything. That’s what Automatic is all about. It also changes the size too. If you you want that, or NEED that, then use it.

I don’t want or need that. I want to choose what font and size I want to use on forms. I don’t want it chosen for me by the operating system. The new font usually has different metrics so you might see truncation at the right or bottom or other issues. I want to control when the font changes in my 4D applications.

So I have created a set of style sheets and I use them EVERYWHERE. Repeat… EVERYWHERE. NEVER do I choose a font or size from the Property list. Choose a style sheet. If I need something different from the style sheets I have defined, I create a new one. This also removes  cross platform font selection issues I’ve had in the past.

Note that it is OK to add a style like bold, or italic or underline to a form object that has a style sheet associated with it.  Same for colors. That helps when you want to occasionally add italic or an underline or red color to something.

I use style sheets for printed forms too. No problem with having 50+ style sheets defined. 4D can handle it. I might have 8 style sheets for a single report to cover all the different elements on that report. Different sizes, bold, etc. And this also makes printing reports work well cross platform. You choose “Helvetica” on macOS and “Arial” on Windows or whatever you want that looks good. You determine what looks good by printing it out and giving it the eye ball and making that decision. After all you are the designer and software architect, so act like it and make these decisions. :)

Regarding the size of fonts used on forms, that’s a decision you and your client must make. Each client will have different needs. I’ll give you 2 examples:

I have one client that has no “old people” and everyone is “young”. So they like everything 11 point. Why? Because they want to pack as much as they can on the screen and everyone has no problem reading that size. So that’s what they get. I set the style sheets and I’m done.

Another client has a mix of old and young people. Some of the “old” people don’t have as good eye sight as when they were young. (I’m in that situation myself.) So the “old” people crank down their monitor resolution. I’ve seen some that have it set at the maximum low value so that the screen renders at 1024x768!  

That’s a problem because my default minimum window size today is 1000x660. And on Windows with the Taskbar at the bottom taking up pixels and the window title bar taking up more, and the Windows MDI window title bar even more, a 1000x660 window can’t open full size. Scroll bars appear. The typical user with a typical monitor today using the default resolution of the monitor and 100% setting on Windows has no problem. But these “i can’t see because I’m old so I need to blow up the monitor size” people complain that they have to scroll all the time.

So the fix for this customer had 2 parts. First, I increased font size on the style sheets by 1 point. From 11 point to 12 point. Amazing how much difference a single point makes with today’s systems. Young people didn’t notice or care. Second was I had all the “old” people with 1024/786 monitor resolution increase their resolution to 1280x720 or more. Some people still complained that it was “too small to read” and the only answer for that is “for you it is, but for everyone else it is fine. A pair of glasses would easily fix this”. They go quiet when you say that because that's the whole reason for the problem. Vanity. They’ve never worn glasses and they don’t want to start.

So I’d talk with you client and tell them you can set the font size to 18 point if they want. But the consequence is less on each screen, or you’ll have to buy everyone 27” monitors.

If you are using style sheets it’s easy to make the change. But you will also may have to do some object resizing to eliminate right and bottom truncation in many areas.

Pro tip: always leave extra room to the right and bottom of text objects, so if you have to bump up the size a point it will not result in truncation issues you have to deal with. This also helps when Apple or Microsoft does a system font change and you decide you want to use that and the new font has different metrics.

Form scaling is really a legacy feature that is still hanging around for those old database that used it back in the 90’s when 4D was first ported to Windows. Style sheets are the way to go.

Tim

*****************************************
Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
[hidden email]
*****************************************

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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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to me - form scaling means:
I hit a key (press a button, whatever) and the form enlarges -
think of Command/Control + on a web page.
think of the designer form control 50% 100% 200% 400%

I have implemented this in v13 by using Object Set Font Size(+/-1) on
everything on the form (list forms only).

the form (and all the objects get bigger, and stay in place relative to
each other (maybe not so much for the web, but mostly).

I do not think of form scaling as changing the monitor resolution from
1600 x 1200 to 800 x600

Chip

On Fri, 7 Dec 2018 15:33:41 -0600, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech wrote:
>
> Form scaling is really a legacy feature that is still hanging around
> for those old database that used it back in the 90’s when 4D was
> first ported to Windows. Style sheets are the way to go.
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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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On Dec 7, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Chip Scheide <[hidden email]> wrote:

> to me - form scaling means:
> I hit a key (press a button, whatever) and the form enlarges -
> think of Command/Control + on a web page.
> think of the designer form control 50% 100% 200% 400%
>
> I have implemented this in v13 by using Object Set Font Size(+/-1) on
> everything on the form (list forms only).
>
> the form (and all the objects get bigger, and stay in place relative to
> each other (maybe not so much for the web, but mostly).
>
> I do not think of form scaling as changing the monitor resolution from
> 1600 x 1200 to 800 x600

Absolutely correct, 4D Form Scaling does not change monitor resolution. My human clients do that so they don’t have to wear glasses. :)

Robert is just looking for a quick — check that checkbox — to solve his problem. Form Scaling is really not that fix. While it may work for him and fix his issue, he is being into using a legacy feature and using it in a way it was never intended to be used.

They way you are doing scaling is a good way, may be the preferred way to do it. But you can only go up a point or 2 before object start colliding and overlapping each other.

Web page form scaling on macOS with the command-+ and command- - keys works great in Safari. Same for Text Edit or Pages. They have programmed it to work correctly.

Maybe some day 4D will implement this type of scaling. That would be sweet!

Tim

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Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
[hidden email]
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Re: 4D Structure Export...

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Thanks for your comments Kirk.

> On Dec 7, 2018, at 11:07, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm not familiar with VC_Framework but the big improvement in R3 is the
> addition of Form convert to dynamic. This allows you to export all the
> forms  - not just the object and form methods. The objects created are
> fully functional dynamic form objects. This is the last piece we needed to
> be able to fully build a database from exported files.
>
Have you (or anyone) built a database from exported files? I’m thinking this would a great way to support branching and team development.

> If it doesn't natively it's not difficult to set the created/modified dates
> of the new files. I do this with method exports because the exported files
> are dated with the current date/time.
>
I see how one would get the modified date for the method using METHOD GET MODIFICATION DATE, but I don’t see a METHOD GET MODIFIED BY. Running on server in a ‘batch’ export, which, if you are using 4D Team Developer, is the only way that Export structure file works, I don’t think there’s a way to know what user modified the method/form/etc.

Maybe we need to consider moving team development from the centralized 4D Team Developer model to a distributed model  using individual copies of 4D. That would match the classic development model and practice which non-4D developers have enjoyed for decades. If 4D v17R3 can actually build a structure from text files generated by Export structure file, I’m thinking it would be possible. Is anyone doing this yet? I would try it myself, but I’m not a Partner at this time.

Tom Benedict



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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
“Giving it the eye ball…” this cracked me up! :)

Thanks Tim for the detailed response. Using custom style sheets extensively was my most utilized approach.

Robert

> On Dec 7, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You determine what looks good by printing it out and giving it the eye ball

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Re: Form Scaling & Optimal Fonts...

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
Tim, actually, I’ve nearly always used custom stylesheets…. I’ve never utilized the scale form feature until recently and only on one form as a test. Since I’ve never used this, I never knew the history or intent of the feature. I was just exploring how best to bring this legacy structure into v17 and wanted to verify best practices when it comes to stylesheet use…

When Kiesuke says "Today it is better to use the same form for both platforms and use only automatic stylesheets.” I took this seriously and questioned my whole approach to custom stylesheets since I’ve never used or thought to use the automatic stylesheets. So, I’m not looking for a checkbox solution for design issues that deserve a custom approach. But I do want to occasionally re-consider my approach, at times, and to make efficient design decisions. As you know there is such a thing as to work within the natural flow of 4D and that’s the smart approach. Yes, I want to be that guy. :)

Again, thanks for your contribution.

Robert

> On Dec 7, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Robert is just looking for a quick — check that checkbox — to solve his problem. Form Scaling is really not that fix.

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Re: 4D Structure Export...

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> Le 7 déc. 2018 à 23:11, Tom Benedict via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> [...]
> I see how one would get the modified date for the method using METHOD GET MODIFICATION DATE, but I don’t see a METHOD GET MODIFIED BY.

Thinking that Current user works already on server side… If we had events triggered (add, modify, delete) by structure objects (methods, forms) on server too, life would be simple.

--
Arnaud de Montard




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RE: 4D Structure Export...

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
> Maybe we need to consider moving team development from the centralized 4D Team
> Developer model to a distributed model  using individual copies of 4D. That would
> match the classic development model and practice which non-4D developers have
> enjoyed for decades.... Is anyone doing
> this yet? I would try it myself, but I’m not a Partner at this time.

We have been doing something similar for some time with the VC_Framework component. The original version of the component doesn't support the re-import of code so we extended it with an import function for methods. The procedure is a bit inconvenient, you have to do an additional step (the import) manually after checking out the code from the versioning system (Mercurial in our case) but it works flawlessly. We use this workflow and the vc_framework component since 4d V13. Look here if you are interested: https://github.com/elutz/vc-framework-v17

A remark: we don't use it for forms. An export of forms is possible using the VC_framework. But we don’t re-import  forms, since this is not possible before 17R3. (And we don't do much GUI development in 4D, it is web development mostly). It might be possible with 17R3 but we have to extend the component again. If we start with 17R3 (or later V18) I think we will adapt the component using the new features.

Regarding this new features in 4D V17R3 I think they are based mainly on the code of this component, the exported results look very similar. But a more in depth test with the 17R3 we didn't do yet.

Regards
Lutz


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Lutz Epperlein  
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