Query editor in v15

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Query editor in v15

Paul Lovejoy-2
Oh my,

I just discovered the new query editor in v15.

We let our users have access to the standard 4D query editor. The one in v14/v15 is radically different and I find it quite hard to use.

        Having to use drop-down menus is quite cumbersome in tables with lots of fields.
        Starting off with a query on the first field by alphabetical order is strange.
        Where are the related table queries?


Does anyone else let your users access the standard editor? If so, how have you dealt with the transition from v12/v13 queries to v14/v15, or am I alone?

I have users who store their queries and recall them at a later date. I’ve found some instances where queries stored in v12 are not opened correctly in v15.


Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions.


Paul


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Re: Query editor in v15

Koen Van Hooreweghe
Hi Paul,

If you like to hang on the old behavior, Keisuke has written a component for that purpose.
https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-classic-query-editor
Haven't tested myself, though.

In my projects I usually create a limited more user friendly query window to allow normal users perform the most used queries. I do add a button to open the query editor. This is for power users, I guess they can handle the new editor.

HTH
Koen

Op 9-dec.-2016, om 11:02 heeft Paul Lovejoy <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:

> We let our users have access to the standard 4D query editor. The one in v14/v15 is radically different and I find it quite hard to use.



--------------------
Compass bvba
Koen Van Hooreweghe
Kloosterstraat 65
9910 Knesselare
Belgium
tel +32 495 511.653

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Re: Query editor in v15

Keisuke Miyako
In reply to this post by Paul Lovejoy-2
if you prefer classic:

https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-classic-query-editor

> 2016/12/09 19:02、Paul Lovejoy <[hidden email]> のメール:
> We let our users have access to the standard 4D query editor. The one in v14/v15 is radically different and I find it quite hard to use.



宮古 啓介
セールス・エンジニア

株式会社フォーディー・ジャパン
〒150-0043
東京都渋谷区道玄坂1-10-2 渋谷THビル6F
Tel: 03-6427-8441
Fax: 03-6427-8449

[hidden email]
www.4D.com/JP

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Re: Query editor in v15

Paul Lovejoy-2
Thanks,

I’ll look at that!


Paul


> Le 9 déc. 2016 à 12:03, Keisuke Miyako <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> if you prefer classic:
>
> https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-classic-query-editor
>
>> 2016/12/09 19:02、Paul Lovejoy <[hidden email]> のメール:
>> We let our users have access to the standard 4D query editor. The one in v14/v15 is radically different and I find it quite hard to use.
>
>
>
> 宮古 啓介
> セールス・エンジニア
>
> 株式会社フォーディー・ジャパン
> 〒150-0043
> 東京都渋谷区道玄坂1-10-2 渋谷THビル6F
> Tel: 03-6427-8441
> Fax: 03-6427-8449
>
> [hidden email]
> www.4D.com/JP
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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Re: Query editor in v15

Paul Lovejoy-2
In reply to this post by Koen Van Hooreweghe
Hi,

Thanks Koen.

FYI, the “power” users will be quite disappointed with one major weakness in the new query editor. It seems queries on related (parent) tables are always sequential in v15. So even a simple query like

        Query([Invoices];[Clients]City=“Los Angeles”) in the query editor

will be run sequentially, even if there’s an automatic relation between the two tables and even if City is indexed. If you have hundreds of thousands, or millions of records, this is a killer.

The exact same query, run in a method will use relations and indexes and find a result virtually instantly.

I think they’ve actually done away with the old Query() editor and kept the Query by formula() editor, which always performed sequential queries over related tables.

Perhaps I’m missing something.


Paul


> Le 9 déc. 2016 à 11:40, Koen Van Hooreweghe <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> If you like to hang on the old behavior, Keisuke has written a component for that purpose.
> https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-classic-query-editor
> Haven't tested myself, though.
>
> In my projects I usually create a limited more user friendly query window to allow normal users perform the most used queries. I do add a button to open the query editor. This is for power users, I guess they can handle the new editor.
>
> HTH
> Koen
>
> Op 9-dec.-2016, om 11:02 heeft Paul Lovejoy <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
>> We let our users have access to the standard 4D query editor. The one in v14/v15 is radically different and I find it quite hard to use.
>
>
>
> --------------------
> Compass bvba
> Koen Van Hooreweghe
> Kloosterstraat 65
> 9910 Knesselare
> Belgium
> tel +32 495 511.653
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************

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Re: Query editor in v15

Alan Chan
In reply to this post by Paul Lovejoy-2
Hi Paul,

Please let us know how it works. I love its localization.

Thanks to another great work from Miyako that ease migration to v15.

Alan Chan

4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]> writes:

>Thanks,
>
>I’ll look at that!
>
>
>Paul
>
>
>> Le 9 déc. 2016 à 12:03, Keisuke Miyako <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> if you prefer classic:
>>
>> https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-classic-query-editor
>>
>>> 2016/12/09 19:02、Paul Lovejoy <[hidden email]> のメール:
>>> We let our users have access to the standard 4D query editor. The one in v14/v15 is radically different and I find it quite hard to use.
>>
>>
>>
>> 宮古 啓介
>> セールス・エンジニア
>>
>> 株式会社フォーディー・ジャパン
>> 〒150-0043
>> 東京都渋谷区道玄坂1-10-2 渋谷THビル6F
>> Tel: 03-6427-8441
>> Fax: 03-6427-8449
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> www.4D.com/JP
>>


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RE: Query editor in v15

Thomas Maul-3
In reply to this post by Paul Lovejoy-2
> Query([Invoices];[Clients]City=“Los Angeles”) in the query editor
> will be run sequentially, even if there’s an automatic relation between the two tables and even
> if City is indexed. If you have hundreds of thousands, or millions of records, this is a killer.

Your structure is from v2004 or older?
In our v11 update trainings we said "first thing to do, is to open compatibility and check the first 3 check boxes".
I assume you still have them disabled? You lost a lot of power in the last years...
The new Query editor is internally using QUERY BY FORMULA. Everything is done with formula.
If that is slow for you, my guess is that you have disabled the high performance features introduced with v11...


4D Deutschland GmbH
Geschäftsführer Laurent Ribardière             Telefon: +49-89-856 33 43-0
Amtsgericht München HRB 92258                  Fax:     +49-89-856 33 43-99
Obere Hauptstrasse 2                           E-Mail:  [hidden email]
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Re: Query editor in v15

Paul Lovejoy-2
In reply to this post by Alan Chan
Miyako has done a great job here.

However, it takes about 10 seconds for the dialog to open. I suppose it’s because we have about 220 tables and it’s taking the time to analyse the structure.

The results of the queries seem very well optimized.


Paul



> Le 09 Dec 2016 à 12:18, Alan Chan <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Please let us know how it works. I love its localization.
>
> Thanks to another great work from Miyako that ease migration to v15.
>
> Alan Chan
>
> 4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]> writes:
>> Thanks,
>>
>> I’ll look at that!
>>
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>> Le 9 déc. 2016 à 12:03, Keisuke Miyako <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>>
>>> if you prefer classic:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/miyako/4d-component-classic-query-editor
>>>
>>>> 2016/12/09 19:02、Paul Lovejoy <[hidden email]> のメール:
>>>> We let our users have access to the standard 4D query editor. The one in v14/v15 is radically different and I find it quite hard to use.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 宮古 啓介
>>> セールス・エンジニア
>>>
>>> 株式会社フォーディー・ジャパン
>>> 〒150-0043
>>> 東京都渋谷区道玄坂1-10-2 渋谷THビル6F
>>> Tel: 03-6427-8441
>>> Fax: 03-6427-8449
>>>
>>> [hidden email]
>>> www.4D.com/JP
>>>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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Re: Query editor in v15

Paul Lovejoy-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Maul-3
We have always have the first two checked. However, not the third involving SQL joins.

I’ll check that one too and try again.

Thanks,

Paul


> Le 09 Dec 2016 à 12:35, Thomas Maul <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> Query([Invoices];[Clients]City=“Los Angeles”) in the query editor
>> will be run sequentially, even if there’s an automatic relation between the two tables and even
>> if City is indexed. If you have hundreds of thousands, or millions of records, this is a killer.
>
> Your structure is from v2004 or older?
> In our v11 update trainings we said "first thing to do, is to open compatibility and check the first 3 check boxes".
> I assume you still have them disabled? You lost a lot of power in the last years...
> The new Query editor is internally using QUERY BY FORMULA. Everything is done with formula.
> If that is slow for you, my guess is that you have disabled the high performance features introduced with v11...
>
>
> 4D Deutschland GmbH
> Geschäftsführer Laurent Ribardière             Telefon: +49-89-856 33 43-0
> Amtsgericht München HRB 92258                  Fax:     +49-89-856 33 43-99
> Obere Hauptstrasse 2                           E-Mail:  [hidden email]
> 85386 Eching - Deutschland                     Web:     www.4D.com
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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Re: Query editor in v15

Paul Lovejoy-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Maul-3
Thomas,

Yes, it was the SQL Joins which made the difference. Things ran fine in v11, v12 and v13 but the new query editor in v14/v15 really requires this option in order to run correctly.


Thanks,


Paul




> Le 09 Dec 2016 à 12:35, Thomas Maul <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> Query([Invoices];[Clients]City=“Los Angeles”) in the query editor
>> will be run sequentially, even if there’s an automatic relation between the two tables and even
>> if City is indexed. If you have hundreds of thousands, or millions of records, this is a killer.
>
> Your structure is from v2004 or older?
> In our v11 update trainings we said "first thing to do, is to open compatibility and check the first 3 check boxes".
> I assume you still have them disabled? You lost a lot of power in the last years...
> The new Query editor is internally using QUERY BY FORMULA. Everything is done with formula.
> If that is slow for you, my guess is that you have disabled the high performance features introduced with v11...
>
>
> 4D Deutschland GmbH
> Geschäftsführer Laurent Ribardière             Telefon: +49-89-856 33 43-0
> Amtsgericht München HRB 92258                  Fax:     +49-89-856 33 43-99
> Obere Hauptstrasse 2                           E-Mail:  [hidden email]
> 85386 Eching - Deutschland                     Web:     www.4D.com
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************

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Re: Query editor in v15

Alan Chan
In reply to this post by Paul Lovejoy-2
Aruh .... we have 204 tables:-(

Alan Chan

4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]> writes:
>Miyako has done a great job here.
>
>However, it takes about 10 seconds for the dialog to open. I suppose it’s because we have about 220 tables and it’s taking the time to analyse the structure.
>
>The results of the queries seem very well optimized.


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Re: Query editor in v15

Paul Lovejoy-2
Maybe Miyako will have a fix for that. I’m assuming it’s the complexity of the structure but I may be wrong.


Paul



> Le 09 Dec 2016 à 13:06, Alan Chan <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> Aruh .... we have 204 tables:-(
>
> Alan Chan
>
> 4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]> writes:
>> Miyako has done a great job here.
>>
>> However, it takes about 10 seconds for the dialog to open. I suppose it’s because we have about 220 tables and it’s taking the time to analyse the structure.
>>
>> The results of the queries seem very well optimized.
>
>
> **********************************************************************
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Re: Query editor in v15

Keisuke Miyako
In reply to this post by Paul Lovejoy-2
the editor follows all relations from all fields for any depth,
not just "1" relations as in the classic editor,
but also "n" relations too,
since QUERY is optimised for n fields since v11.

it could be optimised by some caching mechanism I guess...
I could work on it if you really need it. (I was told that there is little need for it outside of Japan)

> 2016/12/09 20:52、Paul Lovejoy <[hidden email]> のメール:
> However, it takes about 10 seconds for the dialog to open.


宮古 啓介
セールス・エンジニア

株式会社フォーディー・ジャパン
〒150-0043
東京都渋谷区道玄坂1-10-2 渋谷THビル6F
Tel: 03-6427-8441
Fax: 03-6427-8449

[hidden email]
www.4D.com/JP

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Re: Query editor in v15

Paul Lovejoy-2
Hi Miyako,

It would be a very useful feature for us to have such a tool.

I especially like the way you handle the one-to-many relationships. It’s much clearer than the old query editor, not to mention the new one in v14/v15 which I find akward.

What would that entail for you and for us?

Cheers,


Paul




> Le 9 déc. 2016 à 13:57, Keisuke Miyako <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> the editor follows all relations from all fields for any depth,
> not just "1" relations as in the classic editor,
> but also "n" relations too,
> since QUERY is optimised for n fields since v11.
>
> it could be optimised by some caching mechanism I guess...
> I could work on it if you really need it. (I was told that there is little need for it outside of Japan)

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Re: Query editor in v15

Alan Chan
In reply to this post by Keisuke Miyako
You are definitely misinformed. Any help in Query Editor and Chart would be greatly helpful for migration to v15.

Alan Chan

4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]> writes:
>it could be optimised by some caching mechanism I guess...
>I could work on it if you really need it. (I was told that there is little need for it outside of Japan)

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Re: Query editor in v15

Paul Lovejoy-2
Agreed!

(Chart is another story)

> Le 9 déc. 2016 à 15:36, Alan Chan <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> You are definitely misinformed. Any help in Query Editor and Chart would be greatly helpful for migration to v15.
>
> Alan Chan
>
> 4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]> writes:
>> it could be optimised by some caching mechanism I guess...
>> I could work on it if you really need it. (I was told that there is little need for it outside of Japan)
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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RE: Query editor in v15

David R
In reply to this post by Alan Chan
Alan,

You may prefer to use BB_Find. Great detail find editor, saved queries, fast, typing-finder for fields, etc…

Contact tonyring at bbsp dot com

David Ringsmuth

From: Alan Chan
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2016 6:06 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Query editor in v15

Aruh .... we have 204 tables:-(

Alan Chan

4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]> writes:
>Miyako has done a great job here.
>
>However, it takes about 10 seconds for the dialog to open. I suppose it’s because we have about 220 tables and it’s taking the time to analyse the structure.
>
>The results of the queries seem very well optimized.


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Re: Query editor in v15

Alan Chan
Hi David,

Thanks for the tips. Does BB_find have same interface like the old Query Editor?

Many customers have been using the query editor for more than 20 years and get so used to it. They are conservative and hate anything different that require learning unless it's new function (not existed before) or better performance.

We have written few libraries for type ahead with/without entry box for table/fields or column content for our other works. However, writing entire interface simulating the classic query editor takes time.

Alan Chan

4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]> writes:

>Alan,
>
>You may prefer to use BB_Find. Great detail find editor, saved queries, fast, typing-finder for fields, etc…
>
>Contact tonyring at bbsp dot com
>
>David Ringsmuth
>
>From: Alan Chan
>Sent: Friday, December 9, 2016 6:06 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: Query editor in v15
>
>Aruh .... we have 204 tables:-(
>
>Alan Chan
>
>4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]> writes:
>>Miyako has done a great job here.
>>
>>However, it takes about 10 seconds for the dialog to open. I suppose it’s because we have about 220 tables and it’s taking the time to analyse the structure.
>>
>>The results of the queries seem very well optimized.
>
>
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Re: Query editor in v15

Lee Hinde
In reply to this post by Paul Lovejoy-2
On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 2:02 AM, Paul Lovejoy <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Does anyone else let your users access the standard editor? If so, how
> have you dealt with the transition from v12/v13 queries to v14/v15, or am I
> alone?


I just apologize and say it's not my fault. The change seemed gratuitous.
I.e., I'm not clear what itch got scratched with that change.
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Re: Query editor in v15

KirkBrooks
Lee,

​I'll be contrarian and suggest the itch is 'modernity'.

The old query editor is really confusing to people coming to it for the
first time. ​Which, if I look around the room, is none of us. Rolling that
out to new users is sort of like calling your IT guy into the room and he
looks like he stepped out of HP in 1978, pocket protector and all.

Perhaps it's also intended to emphasize the change in query mechanics as
Thomas Maul wrote about.

I personally still prefer the old editor but I've been using it for 30
years. Whatever, I'm adapting.

On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Lee Hinde <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I.e., I'm not clear what itch got scratched with that change.


--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
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