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Recommendations?

4D Tech mailing list
Hi All,

I have a very mature application for a high-precision welding operation. I
had written the original app back in 1984 using SMART (a DOS Database App).
I re-wrote this app in 4D at the beginning of 2015. The "conversion" went
smoothly and there are no known issues. It is presently on 4D v15 and I'm
presently migrating it to v16 R3. It is a small system (Windows Server 2012
R2, Windows 10 Pro workstations, 4-users).

My customer has asked me to add some functionality. Presently, one of the
functions creates and prints a batch of Invoices. This function just prints
two-sets of Invoices - one-set is filed and one-set is snail-mailed. Many
of their customers want to receive the Invoices via email. In anticipation
of this, when I did the re-write I added two fields to the "customer" table
"email address" (text) and "email invoice" (boolean). While there are
trivial and highly manual ways to do this, they would like to automate
(completely, if possible) the process. In an ideal world, the function
would:

   - Create a complete set of an Invoice Batch as PDF. This could be
   individual PDF documents for each invoice or one large PDF document
   containing all the invoices in the batch. This would be saved to the server
   and would be my customer's file-copy.
   - For each Invoice where the bool field in the related customer is true,
   create a PDF document of the Invoice and email it to the address in
   the "email address" field.
   - For each Invoice where the bool field in the related customer is
   false, create a physical printout to be snail-mailed.


A typical batch of invoices (run monthly) is between 100 and 200 individual
invoices. Any recommended plugins and/or suggestions, recommendations, or a
direction in which to head would be most appreciated!

Ken Geiger
Dolores, CO
4D Developer since 1991
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Re: Recommendations?

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Ken:

1. Get a copy of PDFCreator 1.7.3 for Windows. if you can’t find one, let me know and I’ll send you a copy. I could also dig out code for assigning the printer to PDF Creator with file naming, etc.

2. You will probably have to run 2 ‘print’ passes, one for the batch PDF, the other for individual PDF’s or hard copy.

3. Have 4D email the individual PDF’s.

> On Jul 30, 2017, at 1:07 PM, Kenneth Geiger via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have a very mature application for a high-precision welding operation. I
> had written the original app back in 1984 using SMART (a DOS Database App).
> I re-wrote this app in 4D at the beginning of 2015. The "conversion" went
> smoothly and there are no known issues. It is presently on 4D v15 and I'm
> presently migrating it to v16 R3. It is a small system (Windows Server 2012
> R2, Windows 10 Pro workstations, 4-users).
>
> My customer has asked me to add some functionality. Presently, one of the
> functions creates and prints a batch of Invoices. This function just prints
> two-sets of Invoices - one-set is filed and one-set is snail-mailed. Many
> of their customers want to receive the Invoices via email. In anticipation
> of this, when I did the re-write I added two fields to the "customer" table
> "email address" (text) and "email invoice" (boolean). While there are
> trivial and highly manual ways to do this, they would like to automate
> (completely, if possible) the process. In an ideal world, the function
> would:
>
>   - Create a complete set of an Invoice Batch as PDF. This could be
>   individual PDF documents for each invoice or one large PDF document
>   containing all the invoices in the batch. This would be saved to the server
>   and would be my customer's file-copy.
>   - For each Invoice where the bool field in the related customer is true,
>   create a PDF document of the Invoice and email it to the address in
>   the "email address" field.
>   - For each Invoice where the bool field in the related customer is
>   false, create a physical printout to be snail-mailed.
>
>
> A typical batch of invoices (run monthly) is between 100 and 200 individual
> invoices. Any recommended plugins and/or suggestions, recommendations, or a
> direction in which to head would be most appreciated!
>
> Ken Geiger
> Dolores, CO
> 4D Developer since 1991
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************

_________________________________________
Bob McKeever                      http://www.mswl.com <http://www.mswl.com/>
McKeever's Software Wizardry
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
[hidden email]




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Re: Recommendations?

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
Hi Ken,
I've got some experience with this sort of thing and have a number of
thoughts and suggestions - in no particular order.

Before starting I'm assuming we can be certain all invoices to be processed
are already reviewed and OKed by a human somewhere.

#1) the PDFs. Potential for huge headaches. We get invoices from several
vendors by email which are simply emails with the invoice data. There's no
rule that says "invoice" = PDF. You could render a very nice html document
for the invoice along with a perfectly serviceable text representation and
be done with it. The crucial parts are the customer/vendor, date, invoice
number, terms, and amount. Maybe the PO. If that's on a piece of paper it's
an invoice. The rest makes it look nice.

If you don't do that use a scheme for producing PDFs that doesn't depend on
a print driver. Rule out MS PDF printer, PDFCreator et al. Spend the $$ and
get Rob Laveaux's plugin or download the presentation from a couple of
years ago on making your own in native 4D (I did this) but you must have
something that runs in code without OS print resources.

#2) dedicated email account. I really recommend your client have an account
only the database will use. Humans can check it but create a special one
for 4D.

#3) I like having two tables for these operations: [Email_que] and
[Email_log]. You could use one table with a status flag too, this is my
personal pref. I build the emails into a record in the que. Once they are
all ready I loop through those records and send them. You can link these
back to the specific invoice to provide a good audit trail.

If they send successfully I move that info to the log (I don't bother
saving things like the attachments but you may want to) and delete the
record. If it doesn't go I log the error in the Email_que and after some
number of attempts it falls out of the loop. Most common is a bad email
address but it can be other things.

A real key I found is to really break the operation in its discrete parts.
So building the email record is totally complete before dealing with
sending. Building the invoice document is totally separate from anything
else. The email loop is only dealing with sending (or not) an email. Makes
life much easier.

You mention doing batches and this fits right into that. You after the
sending loop you can report the errors or simply add them to the print que.

You can get more sophisticated by having your app check the mail box. I
wouldn't worry with that right away but pretty soon it may be worthwhile.

The other thing this will bring up is customers being able to pay on line.
If you all haven't looked at that yet this may start the conversation.

Does this help?

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Kenneth Geiger via 4D_Tech <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> A typical batch of invoices (run monthly) is between 100 and 200 individual
> invoices. Any recommended plugins and/or suggestions, recommendations, or a
> direction in which to head would be most appreciated!
>
>


--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.*

*- Edmund Burke*
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Re: Recommendations?

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
Robert,

Thanks much! This will help.

Ken

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Robert McKeever via 4D_Tech <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ken:
>
> 1. Get a copy of PDFCreator 1.7.3 for Windows. if you can’t find one, let
> me know and I’ll send you a copy. I could also dig out code for assigning
> the printer to PDF Creator with file naming, etc.
>
> 2. You will probably have to run 2 ‘print’ passes, one for the batch PDF,
> the other for individual PDF’s or hard copy.
>
> 3. Have 4D email the individual PDF’s.
>
> > On Jul 30, 2017, at 1:07 PM, Kenneth Geiger via 4D_Tech <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I have a very mature application for a high-precision welding operation.
> I
> > had written the original app back in 1984 using SMART (a DOS Database
> App).
> > I re-wrote this app in 4D at the beginning of 2015. The "conversion" went
> > smoothly and there are no known issues. It is presently on 4D v15 and I'm
> > presently migrating it to v16 R3. It is a small system (Windows Server
> 2012
> > R2, Windows 10 Pro workstations, 4-users).
> >
> > My customer has asked me to add some functionality. Presently, one of the
> > functions creates and prints a batch of Invoices. This function just
> prints
> > two-sets of Invoices - one-set is filed and one-set is snail-mailed. Many
> > of their customers want to receive the Invoices via email. In
> anticipation
> > of this, when I did the re-write I added two fields to the "customer"
> table
> > "email address" (text) and "email invoice" (boolean). While there are
> > trivial and highly manual ways to do this, they would like to automate
> > (completely, if possible) the process. In an ideal world, the function
> > would:
> >
> >   - Create a complete set of an Invoice Batch as PDF. This could be
> >   individual PDF documents for each invoice or one large PDF document
> >   containing all the invoices in the batch. This would be saved to the
> server
> >   and would be my customer's file-copy.
> >   - For each Invoice where the bool field in the related customer is
> true,
> >   create a PDF document of the Invoice and email it to the address in
> >   the "email address" field.
> >   - For each Invoice where the bool field in the related customer is
> >   false, create a physical printout to be snail-mailed.
> >
> >
> > A typical batch of invoices (run monthly) is between 100 and 200
> individual
> > invoices. Any recommended plugins and/or suggestions, recommendations,
> or a
> > direction in which to head would be most appreciated!
> >
> > Ken Geiger
> > Dolores, CO
> > 4D Developer since 1991
> > **********************************************************************
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> > Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> > **********************************************************************
>
> _________________________________________
> Bob McKeever                      http://www.mswl.com <
> http://www.mswl.com/>
> McKeever's Software Wizardry
> Port Coquitlam, B.C.
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
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Re: Recommendations?

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
Hi Kirk,

Yes, this helps immensely! Time to start prototyping.

Thanks,

Ken

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Ken,
> I've got some experience with this sort of thing and have a number of
> thoughts and suggestions - in no particular order.
>
> Before starting I'm assuming we can be certain all invoices to be processed
> are already reviewed and OKed by a human somewhere.
>
> #1) the PDFs. Potential for huge headaches. We get invoices from several
> vendors by email which are simply emails with the invoice data. There's no
> rule that says "invoice" = PDF. You could render a very nice html document
> for the invoice along with a perfectly serviceable text representation and
> be done with it. The crucial parts are the customer/vendor, date, invoice
> number, terms, and amount. Maybe the PO. If that's on a piece of paper it's
> an invoice. The rest makes it look nice.
>
> If you don't do that use a scheme for producing PDFs that doesn't depend on
> a print driver. Rule out MS PDF printer, PDFCreator et al. Spend the $$ and
> get Rob Laveaux's plugin or download the presentation from a couple of
> years ago on making your own in native 4D (I did this) but you must have
> something that runs in code without OS print resources.
>
> #2) dedicated email account. I really recommend your client have an account
> only the database will use. Humans can check it but create a special one
> for 4D.
>
> #3) I like having two tables for these operations: [Email_que] and
> [Email_log]. You could use one table with a status flag too, this is my
> personal pref. I build the emails into a record in the que. Once they are
> all ready I loop through those records and send them. You can link these
> back to the specific invoice to provide a good audit trail.
>
> If they send successfully I move that info to the log (I don't bother
> saving things like the attachments but you may want to) and delete the
> record. If it doesn't go I log the error in the Email_que and after some
> number of attempts it falls out of the loop. Most common is a bad email
> address but it can be other things.
>
> A real key I found is to really break the operation in its discrete parts.
> So building the email record is totally complete before dealing with
> sending. Building the invoice document is totally separate from anything
> else. The email loop is only dealing with sending (or not) an email. Makes
> life much easier.
>
> You mention doing batches and this fits right into that. You after the
> sending loop you can report the errors or simply add them to the print que.
>
> You can get more sophisticated by having your app check the mail box. I
> wouldn't worry with that right away but pretty soon it may be worthwhile.
>
> The other thing this will bring up is customers being able to pay on line.
> If you all haven't looked at that yet this may start the conversation.
>
> Does this help?
>
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Kenneth Geiger via 4D_Tech <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > A typical batch of invoices (run monthly) is between 100 and 200
> individual
> > invoices. Any recommended plugins and/or suggestions, recommendations,
> or a
> > direction in which to head would be most appreciated!
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Kirk Brooks
> San Francisco, CA
> =======================
>
> *The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> nothing.*
>
> *- Edmund Burke*
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************
>
**********************************************************************
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Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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Re: Recommendations?

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Ken,
Post about what you decide to do.

BTW - I looked at a couple of the vendors I mentioned not sending PDFs -
they were generated by NetSuite. Just saying.

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Kenneth Geiger via 4D_Tech <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Kirk,
>
> Yes, this helps immensely! Time to start prototyping.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken
>
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Ken,
> > I've got some experience with this sort of thing and have a number of
> > thoughts and suggestions - in no particular order.
> >
> > Before starting I'm assuming we can be certain all invoices to be
> processed
> > are already reviewed and OKed by a human somewhere.
> >
> > #1) the PDFs. Potential for huge headaches. We get invoices from several
> > vendors by email which are simply emails with the invoice data. There's
> no
> > rule that says "invoice" = PDF. You could render a very nice html
> document
> > for the invoice along with a perfectly serviceable text representation
> and
> > be done with it. The crucial parts are the customer/vendor, date, invoice
> > number, terms, and amount. Maybe the PO. If that's on a piece of paper
> it's
> > an invoice. The rest makes it look nice.
> >
> > If you don't do that use a scheme for producing PDFs that doesn't depend
> on
> > a print driver. Rule out MS PDF printer, PDFCreator et al. Spend the $$
> and
> > get Rob Laveaux's plugin or download the presentation from a couple of
> > years ago on making your own in native 4D (I did this) but you must have
> > something that runs in code without OS print resources.
> >
> > #2) dedicated email account. I really recommend your client have an
> account
> > only the database will use. Humans can check it but create a special one
> > for 4D.
> >
> > #3) I like having two tables for these operations: [Email_que] and
> > [Email_log]. You could use one table with a status flag too, this is my
> > personal pref. I build the emails into a record in the que. Once they are
> > all ready I loop through those records and send them. You can link these
> > back to the specific invoice to provide a good audit trail.
> >
> > If they send successfully I move that info to the log (I don't bother
> > saving things like the attachments but you may want to) and delete the
> > record. If it doesn't go I log the error in the Email_que and after some
> > number of attempts it falls out of the loop. Most common is a bad email
> > address but it can be other things.
> >
> > A real key I found is to really break the operation in its discrete
> parts.
> > So building the email record is totally complete before dealing with
> > sending. Building the invoice document is totally separate from anything
> > else. The email loop is only dealing with sending (or not) an email.
> Makes
> > life much easier.
> >
> > You mention doing batches and this fits right into that. You after the
> > sending loop you can report the errors or simply add them to the print
> que.
> >
> > You can get more sophisticated by having your app check the mail box. I
> > wouldn't worry with that right away but pretty soon it may be worthwhile.
> >
> > The other thing this will bring up is customers being able to pay on
> line.
> > If you all haven't looked at that yet this may start the conversation.
> >
> > Does this help?
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Kenneth Geiger via 4D_Tech <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > A typical batch of invoices (run monthly) is between 100 and 200
> > individual
> > > invoices. Any recommended plugins and/or suggestions, recommendations,
> > or a
> > > direction in which to head would be most appreciated!
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kirk Brooks
> > San Francisco, CA
> > =======================
> >
> > *The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> > nothing.*
> >
> > *- Edmund Burke*
> > **********************************************************************
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> > Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> > **********************************************************************
> >
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************
>



--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.*

*- Edmund Burke*
**********************************************************************
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Re: Recommendations?

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I wouldn't recommend a plug-in (or PHP) for PDF creation for just 100-200 PDFs a month. It's a real pain in the backside. The printer driver-based solutions are perfectly reliable and are so much easier to maintain.

--
Jeffrey Kain
[hidden email]

> On Jul 30, 2017, at 6:41 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If you don't do that use a scheme for producing PDFs that doesn't depend on
> a print driver.

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Re: Recommendations?

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I would recommend using 4D to create the PDF documents, cross platform , easy to use component.

http://www.greatext.com/PDFGenerator_v15.zip <http://www.greatext.com/PDFGenerator_v15.zip>



> On Jul 31, 2017, at 7:39 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't recommend a plug-in (or PHP) for PDF creation for just 100-200 PDFs a month. It's a real pain in the backside. The printer driver-based solutions are perfectly reliable and are so much easier to maintain.
>
> --
> Jeffrey Kain
> [hidden email]
>
>> On Jul 30, 2017, at 6:41 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> If you don't do that use a scheme for producing PDFs that doesn't depend on
>> a print driver.
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************

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Heads Up about Write Pro Style Transformations

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
This is something to be aware of if you plan to use Write Pro text outside of Write Pro areas.

A bug report has been submitted, but for now Write Pro Style Transformations are cosmetic only.

For instance, if you apply the Write Pro transformation
  Uppercase to "This is a Test",
  you will see "THIS IS A TEST" in the document.

If you copy the text, or retrieve it using "ST Get plain text", you end up with "This is a Test".

Keith - CDI
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Re: Recommendations?

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
+1 for Neil's work on this. It's what I used with a few extensions for some
specific things I required.

On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 7:07 AM, npdennis via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I would recommend using 4D to create the PDF documents, cross platform ,
> easy to use component.
>
> http://www.greatext.com/PDFGenerator_v15.zip <http://www.greatext.com/
> PDFGenerator_v15.zip>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 31, 2017, at 7:39 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I wouldn't recommend a plug-in (or PHP) for PDF creation for just
> 100-200 PDFs a month. It's a real pain in the backside. The printer
> driver-based solutions are perfectly reliable and are so much easier to
> maintain.
> >
> > --
> > Jeffrey Kain
> > [hidden email]
> >
> >> On Jul 30, 2017, at 6:41 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> If you don't do that use a scheme for producing PDFs that doesn't
> depend on
> >> a print driver.
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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=======================

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nothing.*

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Re: Heads Up about Write Pro Style Transformations

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
Hi Keith,
I suppose it could be argued that ST Get Plain Text gets plain (i.e.,
unstyled) text ... text in its raw form ... but I agree with your point of
view.

Pat

On 31 July 2017 at 15:09, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> This is something to be aware of if you plan to use Write Pro text outside
> of Write Pro areas.
>
> A bug report has been submitted, but for now Write Pro Style
> Transformations are cosmetic only.
>
> For instance, if you apply the Write Pro transformation
>   Uppercase to "This is a Test",
>   you will see "THIS IS A TEST" in the document.
>
> If you copy the text, or retrieve it using "ST Get plain text", you end up
> with "This is a Test".
>
> Keith - CDI
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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Re: Heads Up about Write Pro Style Transformations

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Well, It looks like this has been declared standard behavior.  I can't say it's unexpected to see the words "style" and "cosmetic" in the same vicinity.  I question their use with a text "transformation".  This is more about user expectations.  "a" and "A" have always been understood, by technical and non-technical users, to be two different character values.  

Transforming a character from one case to another changes the value of the character in Text Edit, Word, other 4D commands, and so on.  In Write Pro there is no way to tell which character is in the text.  Suppose a client wants their customer name list to be Capitalized.  Write Pro would be a great tool for that, except the final product would be wrong.  They are unable to depend on the data.

All users of any software that I have met, have an expectation that the case of a character is a "real" thing, and the attributes like bold, etc... are the "cosmetic" part.  It seems unfortunate to introduce this kind of ambiguity.

Keith - CDI

> On Aug 1, 2017, at 4:10 AM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Keith,
> I suppose it could be argued that ST Get Plain Text gets plain (i.e.,
> unstyled) text ... text in its raw form ... but I agree with your point of
> view.
>
> Pat
>
> On 31 July 2017 at 15:09, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> This is something to be aware of if you plan to use Write Pro text outside
>> of Write Pro areas.
>>
>> A bug report has been submitted, but for now Write Pro Style
>> Transformations are cosmetic only.
>>
>> For instance, if you apply the Write Pro transformation
>>  Uppercase to "This is a Test",
>>  you will see "THIS IS A TEST" in the document.
>>
>> If you copy the text, or retrieve it using "ST Get plain text", you end up
>> with "This is a Test".
>>
>> Keith - CDI
>> **********************************************************************
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>> **********************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> --
> *************************************************
> CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
> tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
> w: http://www.catbase.com
> skype: pat.bensky
> *************************************************
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
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Re: Heads Up about Write Pro Style Transformations

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Keith,
If you used ST Get Text instead of Get Plain Text, then you maybe could
strip out the style tags and end up with the correct plain text? (I haven't
tried this).

Pat

On 1 August 2017 at 15:08, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Well, It looks like this has been declared standard behavior.  I can't say
> it's unexpected to see the words "style" and "cosmetic" in the same
> vicinity.  I question their use with a text "transformation".  This is more
> about user expectations.  "a" and "A" have always been understood, by
> technical and non-technical users, to be two different character values.
>
> Transforming a character from one case to another changes the value of the
> character in Text Edit, Word, other 4D commands, and so on.  In Write Pro
> there is no way to tell which character is in the text.  Suppose a client
> wants their customer name list to be Capitalized.  Write Pro would be a
> great tool for that, except the final product would be wrong.  They are
> unable to depend on the data.
>
> All users of any software that I have met, have an expectation that the
> case of a character is a "real" thing, and the attributes like bold, etc...
> are the "cosmetic" part.  It seems unfortunate to introduce this kind of
> ambiguity.
>
> Keith - CDI
>
> > On Aug 1, 2017, at 4:10 AM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Keith,
> > I suppose it could be argued that ST Get Plain Text gets plain (i.e.,
> > unstyled) text ... text in its raw form ... but I agree with your point
> of
> > view.
> >
> > Pat
> >
> > On 31 July 2017 at 15:09, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <
> [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> This is something to be aware of if you plan to use Write Pro text
> outside
> >> of Write Pro areas.
> >>
> >> A bug report has been submitted, but for now Write Pro Style
> >> Transformations are cosmetic only.
> >>
> >> For instance, if you apply the Write Pro transformation
> >>  Uppercase to "This is a Test",
> >>  you will see "THIS IS A TEST" in the document.
> >>
> >> If you copy the text, or retrieve it using "ST Get plain text", you end
> up
> >> with "This is a Test".
> >>
> >> Keith - CDI
> >> **********************************************************************
> >> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> >> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> >> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> >> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> >> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> >> **********************************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *************************************************
> > CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
> > tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
> > w: http://www.catbase.com
> > skype: pat.bensky
> > *************************************************
> > **********************************************************************
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> > Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> > **********************************************************************
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************
>



--
*************************************************
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tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
w: http://www.catbase.com
skype: pat.bensky
*************************************************
**********************************************************************
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Re: Heads Up about Write Pro Style Transformations

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i'm confused.  he's getting the right plain text. isn't he saying that if there were an emphatic style that displayed . as ! then the plain text ought to change to ! too ?

> On Aug 1, 2017, at 1:05 PM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Keith,
> If you used ST Get Text instead of Get Plain Text, then you maybe could
> strip out the style tags and end up with the correct plain text? (I haven't
> tried this).
>
> Pat
>
> On 1 August 2017 at 15:08, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Well, It looks like this has been declared standard behavior.  I can't say
>> it's unexpected to see the words "style" and "cosmetic" in the same
>> vicinity.  I question their use with a text "transformation".  This is more
>> about user expectations.  "a" and "A" have always been understood, by
>> technical and non-technical users, to be two different character values.
>>
>> Transforming a character from one case to another changes the value of the
>> character in Text Edit, Word, other 4D commands, and so on.  In Write Pro
>> there is no way to tell which character is in the text.  Suppose a client
>> wants their customer name list to be Capitalized.  Write Pro would be a
>> great tool for that, except the final product would be wrong.  They are
>> unable to depend on the data.
>>
>> All users of any software that I have met, have an expectation that the
>> case of a character is a "real" thing, and the attributes like bold, etc...
>> are the "cosmetic" part.  It seems unfortunate to introduce this kind of
>> ambiguity.
>>
>> Keith - CDI
>>
>>> On Aug 1, 2017, at 4:10 AM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Keith,
>>> I suppose it could be argued that ST Get Plain Text gets plain (i.e.,
>>> unstyled) text ... text in its raw form ... but I agree with your point
>> of
>>> view.
>>>
>>> Pat
>>>
>>> On 31 July 2017 at 15:09, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <
>> [hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is something to be aware of if you plan to use Write Pro text
>> outside
>>>> of Write Pro areas.
>>>>
>>>> A bug report has been submitted, but for now Write Pro Style
>>>> Transformations are cosmetic only.
>>>>
>>>> For instance, if you apply the Write Pro transformation
>>>> Uppercase to "This is a Test",
>>>> you will see "THIS IS A TEST" in the document.
>>>>
>>>> If you copy the text, or retrieve it using "ST Get plain text", you end
>> up
>>>> with "This is a Test".
>>>>
>>>> Keith - CDI
>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>>>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>>>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>>>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>>>> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *************************************************
>>> CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
>>> tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
>>> w: http://www.catbase.com
>>> skype: pat.bensky
>>> *************************************************
>>> **********************************************************************
>>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>>> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>>> **********************************************************************
>>
>> **********************************************************************
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>> **********************************************************************
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *************************************************
> CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
> tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
> w: http://www.catbase.com
> skype: pat.bensky
> *************************************************
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
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Re: Heads Up about Write Pro Style Transformations

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
Pat,

ST Get Text shows the tag in a regular text area: style="text-transform:uppercase", so maybe there is a way to strip the tags and then put the text back into a styled object.  I can see someone writing a utility one day for a customer who needs thousands of documents fixed.

Thanks,

Keith - CDI

> On Aug 1, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Keith,
> If you used ST Get Text instead of Get Plain Text, then you maybe could
> strip out the style tags and end up with the correct plain text? (I haven't
> tried this).
>
> Pat
>
> On 1 August 2017 at 15:08, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Well, It looks like this has been declared standard behavior.  I can't say
>> it's unexpected to see the words "style" and "cosmetic" in the same
>> vicinity.  I question their use with a text "transformation".  This is more
>> about user expectations.  "a" and "A" have always been understood, by
>> technical and non-technical users, to be two different character values.
>>
>> Transforming a character from one case to another changes the value of the
>> character in Text Edit, Word, other 4D commands, and so on.  In Write Pro
>> there is no way to tell which character is in the text.  Suppose a client
>> wants their customer name list to be Capitalized.  Write Pro would be a
>> great tool for that, except the final product would be wrong.  They are
>> unable to depend on the data.
>>
>> All users of any software that I have met, have an expectation that the
>> case of a character is a "real" thing, and the attributes like bold, etc...
>> are the "cosmetic" part.  It seems unfortunate to introduce this kind of
>> ambiguity.
>>
>> Keith - CDI
>>
>>> On Aug 1, 2017, at 4:10 AM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Keith,
>>> I suppose it could be argued that ST Get Plain Text gets plain (i.e.,
>>> unstyled) text ... text in its raw form ... but I agree with your point
>> of
>>> view.
>>>
>>> Pat
>>>
>>> On 31 July 2017 at 15:09, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <
>> [hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is something to be aware of if you plan to use Write Pro text
>> outside
>>>> of Write Pro areas.
>>>>
>>>> A bug report has been submitted, but for now Write Pro Style
>>>> Transformations are cosmetic only.
>>>>
>>>> For instance, if you apply the Write Pro transformation
>>>> Uppercase to "This is a Test",
>>>> you will see "THIS IS A TEST" in the document.
>>>>
>>>> If you copy the text, or retrieve it using "ST Get plain text", you end
>> up
>>>> with "This is a Test".
>>>>
>>>> Keith - CDI
>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>>>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>>>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>>>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>>>> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *************************************************
>>> CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
>>> tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
>>> w: http://www.catbase.com
>>> skype: pat.bensky
>>> *************************************************
>>> **********************************************************************
>>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>>> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>>> **********************************************************************
>>
>> **********************************************************************
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>> **********************************************************************
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *************************************************
> CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
> tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
> w: http://www.catbase.com
> skype: pat.bensky
> *************************************************
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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Re: Heads Up about Write Pro Style Transformations

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In reply to this post by 4D Tech mailing list
Spence,

As per Write Pro standard behavior, I am getting the right text.  But, this standard behavior seems more like "What you see is what you don't get".  You see "UPPERCASE TEXT".  Hand the data off to another program and you can get "Uppercase Text" or "UPPErcase Text or "upperCASE TExt"... and so on.  If a user were to use the transform feature to correct their typing, they could not be sure what is in the documents.

Thanks,

Keith - CDI

> On Aug 1, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Spencer Hinsdale via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> i'm confused.  he's getting the right plain text. isn't he saying that if there were an emphatic style that displayed . as ! then the plain text ought to change to ! too ?
>
>> On Aug 1, 2017, at 1:05 PM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Keith,
>> If you used ST Get Text instead of Get Plain Text, then you maybe could
>> strip out the style tags and end up with the correct plain text? (I haven't
>> tried this).
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> On 1 August 2017 at 15:08, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, It looks like this has been declared standard behavior.  I can't say
>>> it's unexpected to see the words "style" and "cosmetic" in the same
>>> vicinity.  I question their use with a text "transformation".  This is more
>>> about user expectations.  "a" and "A" have always been understood, by
>>> technical and non-technical users, to be two different character values.
>>>
>>> Transforming a character from one case to another changes the value of the
>>> character in Text Edit, Word, other 4D commands, and so on.  In Write Pro
>>> there is no way to tell which character is in the text.  Suppose a client
>>> wants their customer name list to be Capitalized.  Write Pro would be a
>>> great tool for that, except the final product would be wrong.  They are
>>> unable to depend on the data.
>>>
>>> All users of any software that I have met, have an expectation that the
>>> case of a character is a "real" thing, and the attributes like bold, etc...
>>> are the "cosmetic" part.  It seems unfortunate to introduce this kind of
>>> ambiguity.
>>>
>>> Keith - CDI
>>>
>>>> On Aug 1, 2017, at 4:10 AM, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Keith,
>>>> I suppose it could be argued that ST Get Plain Text gets plain (i.e.,
>>>> unstyled) text ... text in its raw form ... but I agree with your point
>>> of
>>>> view.
>>>>
>>>> Pat
>>>>
>>>> On 31 July 2017 at 15:09, Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech <
>>> [hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is something to be aware of if you plan to use Write Pro text
>>> outside
>>>>> of Write Pro areas.
>>>>>
>>>>> A bug report has been submitted, but for now Write Pro Style
>>>>> Transformations are cosmetic only.
>>>>>
>>>>> For instance, if you apply the Write Pro transformation
>>>>> Uppercase to "This is a Test",
>>>>> you will see "THIS IS A TEST" in the document.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you copy the text, or retrieve it using "ST Get plain text", you end
>>> up
>>>>> with "This is a Test".
>>>>>
>>>>> Keith - CDI

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