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Justin Leavens

Summit Session requests!

Are there any topics out there that you might be eager to see presentations on? Practical things? Big picture discussions? Name them off here! Maybe someone will offer to present that topic.

I'll get things started: I'd love to attend a session on SQL basics for people like me who have been resistant to give up the DB4D language. I could use someone to show me where it's worth my time to use SQL, or where the SQL commandset would do something better or easier than the internal database commands.

I would also be interested to see what can be done with the new object printing commands.

Anything else you'd pay money to hear someone to speak about? you're gonna spend the money anyways :-)

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Balinder Walia

Re: Summit Session requests!

Guys,

I have a few ideas to present a session about practical benefits of a proxy
server in front of 4D web application. I want to know if it will be
applicable to audience first before I submit it. I think it will be relevant
to 4Dv12 web apps and wakanda apps too. Here is what we will explore:

*Nginx*
*
*
*http://www.tenthmatrix.co.uk/downloads/Nginx-Proxy-To-4D.png*

- Implement proxy at the front of 4D ( NGINX in this case )
NGINX is far easier to implement, lot more powerful and lightweight app than
blotted Apache. It is purely core C / C++ code and doesn't require a lot of
external libraries in many cases for many implementations
- It can be setup very easily on Linux, Mac and Windows and can also be
setup on the same server as 4D web app or any other back-end DB web
application
- To speed up the 4D web apps instantly using NGINX built-in cache or
memcache version [ I think kb.4d.com will benefit from it instantly ]
- Two or more instances of same 4D web app can be serving back-end database
behind NGINX to achieve 100% uptime. Instance 2 can also be read and write -
means it will also write data while Instance 1 is down. Instance 1 can sync
automatically when it is back-up again
- Administrator can run 4D MSC and other DB operations on Instance 1 while
Instance 2 can automatically take over ( Example, If 4D web app goes down,
or HTTP server is stopped manually prior to maintenance )
- If you use central session management like I do for our web app then users
should not be logged out and in many cases users can carry on using the
online app without losing information. I use MySQL for sessions but in 4Dv12
external databases could also be used for common sessions DB
- UUIDs and robust synchronisation between the all instances is very
important for two read and write 4D
- I can knock down a demo app with above basic functions working in 4Dv12

*sphinxsearch*

Another proposed idea is to have a lighting session about
http://sphinxsearch.com/about/sphinx/ and enhance 4D's database text / Blob
data / documents for better search applications. There is no reasons it
can't be embedded with in a non-web app either but not sure if we can cover
all those options in little time.

So after this session many of us might stop thinking to move their 4D web
apps to PHP/MySQL or Java and scale existing apps by keeping it in 4D
without worrying about downtimes.

Mr Andreas overmeyer has already shown interest so far with couple of other
guys.

Are you guys up for exciting and useful applications of open source and 4D
like above? It has saved my business couple of times and Rollo's
http://www.cleverbot.com/ runs 24 day with nearly a 1TB of 4D data online
using many of these techniques.

Let me know as I will start to prepare and submit to the 4D before the
deadline.

Balinder

On 23 June 2011 04:51, Justin Leavens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are there any topics out there that you might be eager to see presentations
> on? Practical things? Big picture discussions? Name them off here! Maybe
> someone will offer to present that topic.
>
> I'll get things started: I'd love to attend a session on SQL basics for
> people like me who have been resistant to give up the DB4D language. I
> could
> use someone to show me where it's worth my time to use SQL, or where the
> SQL
> commandset would do something better or easier than the internal database
> commands.
>
> I would also be interested to see what can be done with the new object
> printing commands.
>
> Anything else you'd pay money to hear someone to speak about? you're gonna
> spend the money anyways :-)
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.com/Summit-Session-requests-tp4516284p4516284.html
> Sent from the 4D Tech mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> **********************************************************************
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>
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>

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randyengle

RE: Summit Session requests!

Balinder,

Yes! Let's see them!

Randy Engle

> Guys,
>
> I have a few ideas to present a session about practical benefits of a
> proxy
> server in front of 4D web application. I want to know if it will be
> applicable to audience first before I submit it. I think it will be
> relevant
> to 4Dv12 web apps and wakanda apps too. Here is what we will explore:
>
> *Nginx*
> *
> *
> *http://www.tenthmatrix.co.uk/downloads/Nginx-Proxy-To-4D.png*
>
> - Implement proxy at the front of 4D ( NGINX in this case )
> NGINX is far easier to implement, lot more powerful and lightweight app
> than
> blotted Apache. It is purely core C / C++ code and doesn't require a
> lot of
> external libraries in many cases for many implementations
> - It can be setup very easily on Linux, Mac and Windows and can also be
> setup on the same server as 4D web app or any other back-end DB web
> application
> - To speed up the 4D web apps instantly using NGINX built-in cache or
> memcache version [ I think kb.4d.com will benefit from it instantly ]
> - Two or more instances of same 4D web app can be serving back-end
> database
> behind NGINX to achieve 100% uptime. Instance 2 can also be read and
> write -
> means it will also write data while Instance 1 is down. Instance 1 can
> sync
> automatically when it is back-up again
> - Administrator can run 4D MSC and other DB operations on Instance 1
> while
> Instance 2 can automatically take over ( Example, If 4D web app goes
> down,
> or HTTP server is stopped manually prior to maintenance )
> - If you use central session management like I do for our web app then
> users
> should not be logged out and in many cases users can carry on using the
> online app without losing information. I use MySQL for sessions but in
> 4Dv12
> external databases could also be used for common sessions DB
> - UUIDs and robust synchronisation between the all instances is very
> important for two read and write 4D
> - I can knock down a demo app with above basic functions working in
> 4Dv12
>
> *sphinxsearch*
>
> Another proposed idea is to have a lighting session about
> http://sphinxsearch.com/about/sphinx/ and enhance 4D's database text /
> Blob
> data / documents for better search applications. There is no reasons it
> can't be embedded with in a non-web app either but not sure if we can
> cover
> all those options in little time.
>
> So after this session many of us might stop thinking to move their 4D
> web
> apps to PHP/MySQL or Java and scale existing apps by keeping it in 4D
> without worrying about downtimes.
>
> Mr Andreas overmeyer has already shown interest so far with couple of
> other
> guys.
>
> Are you guys up for exciting and useful applications of open source and
> 4D
> like above? It has saved my business couple of times and Rollo's
> http://www.cleverbot.com/ runs 24 day with nearly a 1TB of 4D data
> online
> using many of these techniques.
>
> Let me know as I will start to prepare and submit to the 4D before the
> deadline.
>
> Balinder
>

Ben Kershaw-3

Re: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by Justin Leavens

Balinder Walia wrote:

>I have a few ideas to present a session about practical benefits of a proxy
>server in front of 4D web application. I want to know if it will be
>applicable to audience first before I submit it. I think it will be relevant
>to 4Dv12 web apps and wakanda apps too. Here is what we will explore: *snip*

I would find the Nginx information very interesting.

Regards,
Ben Kershaw

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bob.miller

RE: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by Justin Leavens

Hello All -

I've been following this thread with interest, as I would really like to
put on a session this year, but am not yet securely in the v11 camp (most
of our stuff is still in 2004). A week or so ago, I concluded that I
would not have enough time to finish migration to v11 _and_ prepare a
topic, but now I'm thinking if there are newbies out there, there is
certainly plenty of training I could do without presenting an topic about
something I haven't mastered yet (PHP, SVG, SQL, External Database).
Perhaps my problem with giving a topic is that it always seems like there
is so much that I don't know, that I don't give a lot of weight to the
very large section of topics that I know extremely well. I've certainly
got a lot of 4D knowledge that I don't even realize that I have, having
used it since 1987!

There must be folks out there who are interested in "bread and butter"
intro topics like variables, processes, windows, debugging techniques,
pointers, arrays, relations, call chains, On Startup / On Shutdown,
triggers, and the like. How about non-coding topics such as how to get
started on a project, develop the database schema, or what should be
contained in a spec, or a testing plan? Is there demand for these kinds
of things? What would you like to have in this general realm of topics,
that you'd walk away from the Summit feeling that you've "learned a lot" ?

This is different for each person, so please post your suggestions for
newbie / learner topics and I'll reconsider doing a session. Wish lists
are good.

It occurs to me that if 75 minutes is too much for someone else who's
considering a topic to fill, post it to the list to see if there's someone
else who could use half or a third of that time to present another topic.
Let's see if we can break the record for the number of developer-presented
sessions.

Bob Miller
Parker Hannifin Corporation

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David Conley

Re: Summit Session requests!

If you're looking for suggestions...I would love to have a session on
something like 4D & the Web for newbies. We've had a client/server
app for a number of years and I would love to have a session that
discusses crossing from that paradigm into the web. I'm not
interested in throwing out my c/s app, but adding a web piece to it.
There are many tools & choices available but it would be nice to
compare/contrast each. Discuss the pros and cons of each method, best
practices, security issues, etc. Be able to talk to someone who has
already gone down that path.

Honestly every time I start to think about how to move in that
direction I get overwhelmed about which is the best way to move
forward. I've got to believe that I'm not the only one.

Thanks!

David Conley
By The Book, Inc.
815-234-7530
http://www.bythebook.com

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Joshua Hunter

RE: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by Justin Leavens

I'd love to see a session on rolling your own version control system. How do you go about reliably and automatically committing your code into subversion, git or mercurial (my favorite) from 4D? What works, what doesn't?

I'd also like to see how people handle a multi-developer environment without stepping all over each other. Typically each developer would check out their own copy of the code, make their changes and then when everything is working, check it back in and merge into the main codebase. That way the main codebase is always in a functional state. But 4D doesn't lend itself to that. So what are people doing to make this work?

Joshua Hunter
[hidden email]
www.dwdev.com
Dataworks Development, Inc.
Providing secure and configurable data management solutions for research and clinical labs since 1985.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Justin Leavens
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:52 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Summit Session requests!

Are there any topics out there that you might be eager to see presentations on? Practical things? Big picture discussions? Name them off here! Maybe someone will offer to present that topic.

I'll get things started: I'd love to attend a session on SQL basics for people like me who have been resistant to give up the DB4D language. I could use someone to show me where it's worth my time to use SQL, or where the SQL commandset would do something better or easier than the internal database commands.

I would also be interested to see what can be done with the new object printing commands.

Anything else you'd pay money to hear someone to speak about? you're gonna spend the money anyways :-)

--
View this message in context: http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.com/Summit-Session-requests-tp4516284p4516284.html
Sent from the 4D Tech mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Peter Lerch

Re: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by David Conley

David Conley wrote

Honestly every time I start to think about how to move in that
direction I get overwhelmed about which is the best way to move
forward.

The best way is called Wakanda. There will be a full day dedicated to it.

Peter Lerch

RE: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by Joshua Hunter

Joshua Hunter wrote

I'd love to see a session on rolling your own version control system. How do you go about reliably and automatically committing your code into subversion, git or mercurial (my favorite) from 4D? What works, what doesn't?

I'd also like to see how people handle a multi-developer environment without stepping all over each other. Typically each developer would check out their own copy of the code, make their changes and then when everything is working, check it back in and merge into the main codebase. That way the main codebase is always in a functional state. But 4D doesn't lend itself to that. So what are people doing to make this work?

I could present such a system, but only if I'm allowed to present with v13 ;-)

About mult-developer environment: 4D Server together with some organisational rules is a feasible approach.

David Conley

Re: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by Peter Lerch

Maybe Peter and I'm looking forward to that discussion.

My big question with Wakanda is how to directly access my existing
data from the 4D Server which is running to support client requests.
There has been some discussions that lead me to believe that Wakanda
has its own data stores so I'm not sure yet whether real time access
is feasible.

Last summit I talked to the developers and asked them to make sure
there was the ability to pull data from existing 4D databases. They
assured me there would be. The question is can Wakanda access data
from a 4D database real time or does some migration/syncronization
need to happen (i.e. copy data from 4D DB into Wakanda DS and vice
versa).

As I've said, I'm looking forward to finding out how these 2
technologies will work seamlessly together.

Thanks!

David Conley
By The Book, Inc.
815-234-7530
http://www.bythebook.com

On Jun 23, 2011, at 11:31 AM, Peter Lerch wrote:

>
> David Conley wrote:
>>
>> Honestly every time I start to think about how to move in that
>> direction I get overwhelmed about which is the best way to move
>> forward.
>>
>
> The best way is called Wakanda. There will be a full day dedicated
> to it.
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.com/Summit-Session-requests-tp4516284p4518098.html
> Sent from the 4D Tech mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> **********************************************************************
> 4D v12.2 is Available - Now Powered with 64-bit server
> http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
>
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub: mailto:[hidden email]
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Chuck Miller-2

Re: Summit Session requests!

I think for Wakanda to be really successful, it ultimately has to have the ability to access any SQL compliant data store. You are not going to get customers who have there data in Oracle, or SQL Server for example to move that data into and out of Wakanda, but being as this is such a great front end, you will be able to get them to use it as that

Just my 2 cents
Regards
Chuck
On Jun 23, 2011, at 12:50 PM, david conley wrote:

> Last summit I talked to the developers and asked them to make sure there was the ability to pull data from existing 4D databases. They assured me there would be. The question is can Wakanda access data from a 4D database real time or does some migration/syncronization need to happen (i.e. copy data from 4D DB into Wakanda DS and vice versa).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
PO Box 1720 mailto:cjmiller<AT SIGN>informed-solutions.com
Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
http://www.informed-solutions.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message and any attached documents contain information which may be confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. These materials are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of this transmission, you are hereby notified that any distribution, disclosure, printing, copying, storage, modification or the taking of any action in reliance upon this transmission is strictly prohibited. Delivery of this message to any person other than the intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality, privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication.

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Jack des Bouillons

Re: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by Peter Lerch

I don't think that Wakanda is being positioned as afront-end to an existing
4D system...

Jack des Bouillons

On 6/23/11 9:31 AM, "Peter Lerch" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> David Conley wrote:
>>
>> Honestly every time I start to think about how to move in that
>> direction I get overwhelmed about which is the best way to move
>> forward.
>>
>
> The best way is called Wakanda. There will be a full day dedicated to it.

Peter Lerch

Re: Summit Session requests!

Jack des Bouillons wrote

I don't think that Wakanda is being positioned as afront-end to an existing
4D system...

Jack des Bouillons

Jack,

I don't think it either. But I try to use it as such. Some customers want to access an isolated part of our application from mobile devices or integrate it into their CRM system. This isolated part (it's only two forms) has a quite complex interface and a lot of logic and data behind it. So it has to be an AJAX approach and Wakanda seems to well suited for the task.

Peter

Stephen J. Orth

RE: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by David Conley

David,

Based upon the reading I've done regarding Wakanda, there are already API's
to access 4D databases. Not sure if they are operational yet, but I know
I've see the API calls.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of david conley
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 11:50 AM
To: 4D iNug Technical
Subject: Re: Summit Session requests!

Maybe Peter and I'm looking forward to that discussion.

My big question with Wakanda is how to directly access my existing
data from the 4D Server which is running to support client requests.
There has been some discussions that lead me to believe that Wakanda has its
own data stores so I'm not sure yet whether real time access is feasible.

Last summit I talked to the developers and asked them to make sure there was
the ability to pull data from existing 4D databases. They assured me there
would be. The question is can Wakanda access data from a 4D database real
time or does some migration/syncronization need to happen (i.e. copy data
from 4D DB into Wakanda DS and vice versa).

As I've said, I'm looking forward to finding out how these 2 technologies
will work seamlessly together.

Thanks!

David Conley
By The Book, Inc.
815-234-7530
http://www.bythebook.com

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Jack des Bouillons

Re: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by Chuck Miller-2

4D's marketing pitch is that this is a complete solution for web
development, just like 4D is a complete solution for client/server
systems...

You could always make the case that you could use 4D (regular 4D) as a front
end to a back-end SQL system, but there are other tools for that.

My guess is that 4D is looking to attract a whole new set of developers for
Wakanda. There may be some support for Wakanda/4D system integration, but
that's not going to be where 4D puts it's resources...

Just my opinion...

Jack des Bouillons
Hobbs/Herder Advertising

On 6/23/11 9:56 AM, "Chuck Miller" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I think for Wakanda to be really successful, it ultimately has to have the
> ability to access any SQL compliant data store. You are not going to get
> customers who have there data in Oracle, or SQL Server for example to move
> that data into and out of Wakanda, but being as this is such a great front
> end, you will be able to get them to use it as that

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Chuck Miller-2

Re: Summit Session requests!

There are but not many cross platform or at least the last time I looked and at least the one that Liberty Mutual chose was much more costly than 4D and though planned has never replaced it.

Regards
Chuck
On Jun 23, 2011, at 2:38 PM, Jack Des Bouillons wrote:

> You could always make the case that you could use 4D (regular 4D) as a front
> end to a back-end SQL system, but there are other tools for that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
PO Box 1720 mailto:cjmiller<AT SIGN>informed-solutions.com
Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
http://www.informed-solutions.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message and any attached documents contain information which may be confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. These materials are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of this transmission, you are hereby notified that any distribution, disclosure, printing, copying, storage, modification or the taking of any action in reliance upon this transmission is strictly prohibited. Delivery of this message to any person other than the intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality, privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication.

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John Foster

Re: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by Justin Leavens

Hey David,

Last Summit they specifically said that Wakanda would be able to access a 4D database. I can't recall if it was Server only or any data file. They, as in Laurent, talked about how it would be seamlessly translated. Other databases would not be in this version.

How things have changed since I can't say at this point.

John...

> Last summit I talked to the developers and asked them to make sure there was the ability to pull data from existing 4D databases. They assured me there would be. The question is can Wakanda access data from a 4D database real time or does some migration/syncronization need to happen (i.e. copy data from 4D DB into Wakanda DS and vice versa).

--------------------------------------------------------------

John Foster
Eternity Software
425-486-1622

http://www.eternity-software.com/ES_Products.html

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--------------------------------------------------------------

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David Conley

Re: Summit Session requests!

Thanks everyone for posting on my questions. I think a bunch of us
are eagerly waiting to see what Wakanda delivers. I hope to have some
free time to try it out, but I'm not sure if I can do it before the
summit.

I'm really looking forward to future discussions on Wakanda.

Thanks!

David Conley
By The Book, Inc.
815-234-7530
http://www.bythebook.com

On Jun 23, 2011, at 2:58 PM, John Foster wrote:

> Hey David,
>
> Last Summit they specifically said that Wakanda would be able to
> access a 4D database. I can't recall if it was Server only or any
> data file. They, as in Laurent, talked about how it would be
> seamlessly translated. Other databases would not be in this version.
>
> How things have changed since I can't say at this point.
>

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Jack des Bouillons

Re: Summit Session requests!

In reply to this post by John Foster

I have not had the time to "play" with Wakanda yet, but I have read over
much of the documentation...

It seems to me that the real power of Wakanda comes from the SERVER-side of
the development...

If people are thinking to use the client-side to just directly access a 4D
data file, I think you are going to be disappointed.

It's just my opinion (NO inside info), but if there is going to be a hook
between a Wakanda system and 4D, I think it is likely to be a synch between
the Wakanda datastore and the 4D datafile.

And if you think you can just duplicate the 4D tables into Wakanda, as I
understand the "structure" of a Wakanda datastore, you are going to loose a
lot of the advantages of Wakanda datastore structure.

I guess we will all learn more in Boston.

Jack des Bouillons

On 6/23/11 12:58 PM, "John Foster" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey David,
>
> Last Summit they specifically said that Wakanda would be able to access a 4D
> database. I can't recall if it was Server only or any data file. They, as in
> Laurent, talked about how it would be seamlessly translated. Other databases
> would not be in this version.
>
> How things have changed since I can't say at this point.

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Walt Seattle

Re: Summit Session requests!

On Jun 23, 2011, at 1:46 PM, Jack Des Bouillons wrote:
> And if you think you can just duplicate the 4D tables into Wakanda, as I
> understand the "structure" of a Wakanda datastore, you are going to loose a
> lot of the advantages of Wakanda datastore structure.

Exactly.

Wakanda is using a NO SQL datastore. I forget exactly where I read that, but I'm certain it was over at the Wakanda Forum.

I would advise folks to take a look at the Wakanda Forum for these discussions.

http://forum.wakanda.org/

Thanks,
Walt Nelson (Seattle)
Check out new video tutorials at
www.foundationshell.com
[hidden email]

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