The compitition

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The compitition

Chip Scheide
in my email this morning, a weekly "newsletter" from Macworld -
number 1 article :
Filemaker 13: The database is in the browser

the first line of the article:
"A database is useless if your users can't access it, so on Tuesday, FileMaker revealed a major update to its FileMaker database platform that allows users to access FileMaker databases through a browser." ...
...
Databases accessed via the Web use an interface that mirrors that used in the desktop app. Changes made through the Web are updated to the FileMaker database in real time, so you can see up-to-date information regardless of which client was used to make the updates.
...


see full article here - http://www.macworld.com/article/2065606/filemaker-13-the-database-is-in-your-browser.html#tk.nl_mwbest

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Re: The compitition

Sujit Shah
Interesting comments. The demise of Bento seems to have peeved a lot of
developers.


On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:09 AM, Chip Scheide <[hidden email]>wrote:

> in my email this morning, a weekly "newsletter" from Macworld -
> number 1 article :
> Filemaker 13: The database is in the browser
>
> the first line of the article:
> "A database is useless if your users can't access it, so on Tuesday,
> FileMaker revealed a major update to its FileMaker database platform that
> allows users to access FileMaker databases through a browser." ...
> ...
> Databases accessed via the Web use an interface that mirrors that used in
> the desktop app. Changes made through the Web are updated to the FileMaker
> database in real time, so you can see up-to-date information regardless of
> which client was used to make the updates.
> ...
>
>
> see full article here -
> http://www.macworld.com/article/2065606/filemaker-13-the-database-is-in-your-browser.html#tk.nl_mwbest
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
> your applications richer and faster
> http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
>
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
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>



--

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "

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Re: The compitition

Larry Wolf
In reply to this post by Chip Scheide
Wow! This sounds amazing. If it works as well as they claim then IMHO this
is what 4D should have invested in instead of Wakanda. It would be a game
changer for everyone who makes their living working in 4D.
____                                                  ____
                   
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505.946.6611                               Developers of ACUMEN Book
Email: [hidden email]
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On 12/9/13 4:27 PM, "[hidden email]"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Subject: Re: The compitition
>Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 07:44:57 +1100
>From: Sujit Shah <[hidden email]>
>To: 4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]>
>Message-ID:
> <CAJz_i=[hidden email]>
>
>Interesting comments. The demise of Bento seems to have peeved a lot of
>developers.
>
>
>On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:09 AM, Chip Scheide
><[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>>in my email this morning, a weekly "newsletter" from Macworld -
>>number 1 article :
>>Filemaker 13: The database is in the browser
>>
>>the first line of the article:
>>"A database is useless if your users can't access it, so on Tuesday,
>>FileMaker revealed a major update to its FileMaker database platform that
>>allows users to access FileMaker databases through a browser." ...
>>...
>>Databases accessed via the Web use an interface that mirrors that used in
>>the desktop app. Changes made through the Web are updated to the
>>FileMaker
>>database in real time, so you can see up-to-date information regardless
>>of
>>which client was used to make the updates.
>>...
>>
>>
>>see full article here -
>>http://www.macworld.com/article/2065606/filemaker-13-the-database-is-in-y
>>our-browser.html#tk.nl_mwbest


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Re: The compitition

Peter Jakobsson-2
On 10 Dec 2013, at 14:26, Larry Wolf wrote:

>  It would be a game
> changer for everyone who makes their living working in 4D.

...if you make your living writing CD catalogues and recipe cards with a flat file database in "User Mode" that is :)


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Re: The compitition

KirkBrooks
Peter,
With all respect I have to disagree. Filemaker has a huge number of
business users who pay real money to scads of Filemaker developers for
things that are not CD catalogs. I won't bother repeating some of the
things I learned from Mark Lemm about this. He was the Filemaker guy at the
Summit in SJ last year. Talking with him afterwards I was really surprised
how large their developer base is. This is why I am posting about this so
often - there really is a huge market for business solutions. Still.

It's just not clear to me that 4D sees this as an opportunity.


On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 7:16 AM, Peter Jakobsson <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 10 Dec 2013, at 14:26, Larry Wolf wrote:
>
> >  It would be a game
> > changer for everyone who makes their living working in 4D.
>
> ...if you make your living writing CD catalogues and recipe cards with a
> flat file database in "User Mode" that is :)
>
>
> **********************************************************************
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> your applications richer and faster
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>
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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--
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San Francisco, CA
=======================

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Re: The compitition

KirkBrooks
In reply to this post by Chip Scheide
Chip,

Is this the article<http://www.macworld.com/article/2065606/filemaker-13-the-database-is-in-your-browser.html>you
saw?

I wonder if 4D itself thinks Filemaker is 'the competition.' I wish I'd
asked Tom about that at the Summit one of the times we were talking.

Just for fun I did a search on Filemaker competition and came across this
post <http://ottawafilemakerdeveloper.com/wp/?p=100> and comments. It
echoes many things I've said here - down to the theme of talking to
ourselves about ourselves too much and the lack of marketing and
evangelizing for a great product. Granted our's 'is better' and this post
is 2 years old.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:09 AM, Chip Scheide <[hidden email]>wrote:

> in my email this morning, a weekly "newsletter" from Macworld -
> number 1 article :
> Filemaker 13: The database is in the browser
>
> the first line of the article:
> "A database is useless if your users can't access it, so on Tuesday,
> FileMaker revealed a major update to its FileMaker database platform that
> allows users to access FileMaker databases through a browser." ...
> ...
> Databases accessed via the Web use an interface that mirrors that used in
> the desktop app. Changes made through the Web are updated to the FileMaker
> database in real time, so you can see up-to-date information regardless of
> which client was used to make the updates.
> ...
>
>
> see full article here -
> http://www.macworld.com/article/2065606/filemaker-13-the-database-is-in-your-browser.html#tk.nl_mwbest
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
> your applications richer and faster
> http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
>
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************
>



--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

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Re: The compitition

Chip Scheide
yes that is the article


>
> Is this the
> article<http://www.macworld.com/article/2065606/filemaker-13-the-database-is-in-your-browser.html>you
> saw?

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Re: The compitition

Peter Jakobsson-2
In reply to this post by KirkBrooks
On 10 Dec 2013, at 23:39, Kirk Brooks wrote:

> With all respect I have to disagree. Filemaker has a huge number of
> business users who pay real money to scads of Filemaker developers for
> things that are not CD catalogs

Hi Kirk

Yes indeed. I've seen some of these projects :-)

There are also millions of businesses running advanced stock control and accounting systems in Excel.

Filemaker is basically Apple's answer to Microsoft Access - an extension of iWork. Its barely a database - subtly distinguishable from a WP document with tables with everything kept in RAM to mask the performance issues.  I'm not surprised they're able to slap a web front end on their databases because there's no market that they won't "play" in at any expense. I would like 4D to be better known, but at the same time I hope they avoid this particular market like the plague. They already tried it with Fileforce and the market spat them back out because it was a square peg in a round hole.

I've visited sites that have Filemaker databases that they're bursting out of and almost feel dizzy after taking just one look at them. Kind of like looking at the Empire State Building kept steady with nothing but millions of guy ropes cos they forgot to dig a foundation.

I know consultants make a lot of money from FM projects but for me anyway, FIlemaker = Hypercard with a web front end and lookups across card boxes. (Just as Windows is always really DOS underneath and VB objects is really just Bill Gates original paper tape interpreter with dot notation hiding the "GOTO"s :).

Maybe I'm showing my dinosaurism here, but every time I visit a site with a FM infrastructure I just walk away with the same dizzy feeling.

Even reading this thread has made me dizzy now at the thought of running serious stuff in a wordprocessor with tables - must be time for a calming herbal tea !

Peter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard


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Re: The compitition

Larry Wolf
In reply to this post by Chip Scheide
Peter,

You might be surprised how powerful Filemaker is and what people are able
to do with it. The last time I studied it was at a client site in 2005. At
that time it had some really great features that 4D still does not have.
For example, you could expand (the 4D equivalent of) an input form and all
the fonts and objects would scale perfectly. Their reporting tool handled
one to many relations better than Quick Report does today. I'm not saying
it is better than 4D, just that it is a= excellent tool with a large base
and it is used for a large variety of purposes.

____              
Larry Wolf, President
CyberWolf Inc.
505.946.6638
http://www.cyberwolf.com/




On 12/10/13 4:39 PM, "[hidden email]"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>Message: 4
>Subject: Re: The compitition
>Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:16:55 +0100
>From: Peter Jakobsson <[hidden email]>
>To: 4D iNug Technical <[hidden email]>
>Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>
>On 10 Dec 2013, at 14:26, Larry Wolf wrote:
>
>>  It would be a game
>>changer for everyone who makes their living working in 4D.
>
>...if you make your living writing CD catalogues and recipe cards with a
>flat file database in "User Mode" that is :)


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Re: The compitition

Peter Jakobsson-2

On 11 Dec 2013, at 13:12, Larry Wolf wrote:

> Their reporting tool handled
> one to many relations better than Quick Report does today. I'm not saying
> it is better than 4D, just that it is a= excellent tool with a large base
> and it is used for a large variety of purposes

Hi Larry

My post was a little bit tongue in cheek.

I know that there are plenty of interesting features, it's just that I tend to build a fundamental picture of these products and if that feels flakey, then none of the bells and whistles matter to me.

Peter


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Re: The compitition

ezmac
el 14:17 +0100 11/12/13, Peter Jakobsson escribió/écrivait/wrote

>On 11 Dec 2013, at 13:12, Larry Wolf wrote:
>
>>  Their reporting tool handled
>>  one to many relations better than Quick Report does today. I'm not saying
>>  it is better than 4D, just that it is a= excellent tool with a large base
>>  and it is used for a large variety of purposes
>
>Hi Larry
>
>My post was a little bit tongue in cheek.
>
>I know that there are plenty of interesting
>features, it's just that I tend to build a
>fundamental picture of these products and if
>that feels flakey, then none of the bells and
>whistles matter to me.
>
>Peter
>
and others,

if you are partner just see this summit sesion
you have near almost diferences between.


http://kb.4d.com/assetid=76746

--
saludetes, regards, cordialement

un maquero irreverente desde el 1984

  Fernando-Juan Santos Hernández


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Re: The compitition

Richard Wright-2
In reply to this post by Chip Scheide
I remember a 4D Developer Conference many years ago where auto-scaling of form objects was not only talked about, but demoed. I'm still waiting...



> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:12:51 +0000
> From: Larry Wolf <[hidden email]>
>
> Peter,
>
> You might be surprised how powerful Filemaker is and what people are able
> to do with it. The last time I studied it was at a client site in 2005. At
> that time it had some really great features that 4D still does not have.
> For example, you could expand (the 4D equivalent of) an input form and all
> the fonts and objects would scale perfectly. Their reporting tool handled
> one to many relations better than Quick Report does today. I'm not saying
> it is better than 4D, just that it is a= excellent tool with a large base
> and it is used for a large variety of purposes.


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Re: The compitition

Mike Kerner
In reply to this post by Peter Jakobsson-2
>
>
> I know consultants make a lot of money from FM projects but for me anyway,
> FIlemaker = Hypercard with a web front end and lookups across card boxes.
>

Just an FYI, Peter, HyperCard lives on in LiveCode, which, by the way, now
has (actually, has always had, via add-ons) native database back ends, and
allows one to compile native apps for iOS, Android, Linux, Windows, and
OSX.  It went open source last year, and raised a bit over $800k via
KickStarter in the process, putting it in the top 10 tech KS's of all
time.  It has a server piece, and a web server, for those who want that.

4D is definitely feeling like legacy to us, now.  HyperCard's grandkid is
not.  I still use 4D all the time, and one of the applications we wrote in
it is now growing in popularity, again, but only because it is in the
background, and the app we wrote in HyperCard's grandchild for everyone's
handheld is in the foreground.

You can always define your market as narrowly as you choose or as broadly
as you choose.  Narrow, IMHO, leads to legacy, unless your definition of
"narrow" is "bleeding edge".

FMPro, Access, and spreadsheet alphabet soup all are more appealing to most
users than 4D.  It doesn't matter what fans think.  It matters what the
folks spending the money think, and they have been spending a couple of
decades spending money on other tools.

--
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."

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Re: The compitition

David Adams-4
I had a look at FMP 12 last year - the first version I've looked at
since....last century? I was surprised at how good it's become. I'd hoped
to use it for building quick-and-dirty iOS apps in FileMaker Go! that would
work as sort-of functional prototypes. There's a huge range of projects
where a simple iOS (or Android) front-end would be fantastic but where the
audience size and/or budget can't justify the cost. The FMP12 + Go! system
wasn't quite there yet for what I had in mind, but it seemed like a good
idea.

A few random notes:

* It sounds like FMP12 was a huge step forward in many respects for the
product line. I haven't looked at FMP13 and know zero about what it
improves.

* FMP no longer looks cartoonish and silly. In fact, it looks pretty
decent. There design tools are pretty decent. (Although their "Portals" are
frankly bewildering and they could really use 4D's 'select similar objects'
feature.)

* You can get a lot of functionality in a hurry. I can too in 4D...but
that's with a mass of code already in place. (I can do better in 4D...but
I've been doing 4D for a couple of years by now.)

* One of my dreams was to use 4D to push data into a Go! database for
distribution to iOS. Makes sense in some scenarios...I've got one where
it's a perfect idea. Well, yeah, you can do that. The limits are:
-- what you can and can't do with Go!
-- the ODBC connection to FM. As far as I can tell, this is even _worse_
than doing ODBC into 4D Server. Still, I got it working and could send
simple data and rich media data (MP3, JPG, PNG.) To make it a clearer
example, I have a huge database in 4D of bird data: sounds, taxonomy,
pictures, aliases, PDFs of articles, etc. Counting the media, it's been
over 100GB of data for ages. I want subsets for specific countries that I
can take into the field with me, use on iOS (and even Android, but my phone
isn't all that) and use *off-line*. Birds tend to be where people
aren't....so decent on-line speeds (or any connectivity at all) is pretty
much out the window when I most need it.

* One of my other dreams was to use FileMaker's auto-magical sync with
MySQL. WIth this feature, you've got your FM or Go! database on the network
and it has live, read-write access to data stored in MySQL...with various
limits. So, you get what looks like a standard FM search but the data is
back in MySQL. Very sweet! It works perfectly. Until it doesn't. And then
you're done. Still, it's a nice idea. I'd love something like this as for
another client I'm building lots and lots of what amount to
department-level systems and there's no way to make everyone use 4D Client,
etc. iOS native, that's the order of the day...

Like I said, random notes...it's been the better part of a year since I
looked at this stuff.

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Re: The compitition

KirkBrooks
In reply to this post by Peter Jakobsson-2
Mark's attendance at the Summit last year was highly touted at the time -
he was on a panel or two and it was cool that a FM guy was, apparently,
committing to 4D and willing to tell us how great 4D is compared to FM as a
development platform.

I was at this presentation. It was very lightly attended. In fact most of
the people there were some of the 4D Inc guys and 6 or 8 developers.

I had a couple of conversations and email exchanges with Mark after the
Summit. I've already written a lot about those exchanges so I won't repeat
myself except to say I was surprised how much work he has as a FM
developer, how many other FM devs there are and how well he gets paid for
essentially selling the same solution over and over. And that's no knock on
him.

The bottom line is he found that while 4D is superior, far superior, as a
platform it is essentially un-saleable as a solution. The reasons are well
discussed around here and imminently correctable.

The last time I talked with him, this summer sometime, he'd concluded
there just wasn't any benefit for him in pursuing 4D for his business
despite the fact it offers a superior development platform.


On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 7:05 AM, Fernando-Juan Santos
<[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> if you are partner just see this summit sesion you have near almost
> diferences between.
>
> http://kb.4d.com/assetid=76746
>
> --
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

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RE: The competition

Walt Nelson (Manila)-2
Kirk,

I think that the biggest barrier to 4D for a developer coming from another
tool, who needs to make a living right away (or soon), is the POWER AND
FLEXIBILITY of 4D. Gone are the days when one could whip out an app in a few
hours after going thru the tutorial. With several thousand commands and
hundreds of tools for building forms and websites, learning 4D is (IMHO) a
daunting task for a new developer who is coming from another tool which
he/she already knows. Any developer worth his/her salt will realize that an
investment of several months - in which he/she earns no income - will be
required in order to get to the point where he/she can provide solutions
that will make some real money. That's why it is so difficult for 4D to
attract developers from other platforms like FileMaker.

The same goes for professionals who need a tool to get something done: in
the old days, doctors, professors, and other professionals could learn 4D in
a couple of weeks in their spare time, whip out an app, and right away start
seeing some return on their learning investment. Now, that two weeks has
turned into two months or perhaps even much longer.

The strength of 4D is its power and flexibility; when trying to attract new
developers who will earn their living from 4D or use 4D in their own
profession, that power and flexibility are also 4D's weaknesses. (IMHO)

Walt Nelson (Manila)

> Kirk Brooks said:

>
> Mark's attendance at the Summit last year was highly touted at the time
> - he was on a panel or two and it was cool that a FM guy was,
> apparently, committing to 4D and willing to tell us how great 4D is
> compared to FM as a development platform.
>
> I was at this presentation. It was very lightly attended. In fact most
> of the people there were some of the 4D Inc guys and 6 or 8 developers.
>
> I had a couple of conversations and email exchanges with Mark after the
> Summit. I've already written a lot about those exchanges so I won't
> repeat myself except to say I was surprised how much work he has as a
> FM developer, how many other FM devs there are and how well he gets
> paid for essentially selling the same solution over and over. And
> that's no knock on him.
>
> The bottom line is he found that while 4D is superior, far superior, as
> a platform it is essentially un-saleable as a solution. The reasons are
> well discussed around here and imminently correctable.
>
> The last time I talked with him, this summer sometime, he'd concluded
> there just wasn't any benefit for him in pursuing 4D for his business
> despite the fact it offers a superior development platform.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 7:05 AM, Fernando-Juan Santos
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
> >
> > if you are partner just see this summit sesion you have near almost
> > diferences between.
> >
> > http://kb.4d.com/assetid=76746
> >



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Re: The competition

KirkBrooks
Hi Walt,
i'm back from some vacation time and catching up on things so I just came
across your response.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying. My concern about 4D in
general is that all the points you make have been just as true for the last
ten years at least and yet 4D continues to languish in obscurity and
continues to fail to attract many new customers. It's been pretty well
documented that the majority of 4D devs are guys like you and me who
started using it a long, long time ago for exactly the reasons you list.

The company needs more than a great product and great engineering. Apple is
the obvious company to try to emulate. They had the best OS going for years
and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.

--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

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Re: The competition

Walt Nelson (Manila)-2
Hi Kirk.

Yes, we know by now that 4D is amazing with technology, but they are lousy at marketing. One thing they totally don't "get" is how important it is to provide at least one complete and powerful example of how to use 4D in the real world.

"If it is to be, it's up to me."
So I have decided to release a product which a brand new 4D developer can use to "Hit the ground running." Foundation used to be the ticket, but it is a bit long in the tooth. Also, I notice that the Foundation example on the web site is v12; it does not appear that much effort is going into keeping up with the advances in 4D technology with variables, menus, localization, etc.

So I have decided to release an "Application Development Environment" that goes far beyond Foundation to help a new developer hit the ground running. It also uses the latest 4D technology with the product, I will also offer a Certification Program for my product - something else that we have been suggesting for years, but it is clear will never happen from 4D itself.

Stay tuned...

Regards,

Walt Nelson
Walt Nelson & Associates
[hidden email]
(63) 918 803 8933
Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 29, 2013, at 5:34 AM, Kirk Brooks <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Walt,
> i'm back from some vacation time and catching up on things so I just came
> across your response.
>
> I don't disagree with anything you are saying. My concern about 4D in
> general is that all the points you make have been just as true for the last
> ten years at least and yet 4D continues to languish in obscurity and
> continues to fail to attract many new customers. It's been pretty well
> documented that the majority of 4D devs are guys like you and me who
> started using it a long, long time ago for exactly the reasons you list.
>
> The company needs more than a great product and great engineering. Apple is
> the obvious company to try to emulate. They had the best OS going for years
> and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.
>
> --
> Kirk Brooks
> San Francisco, CA
> =======================
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
> your applications richer and faster
> http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
>
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************
>

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http://www.4d.com/products/new.html

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Re: The competition

KirkBrooks
Walt,
Great. I look forward to see what you do.

I, too, have thought about polishing up something to offer up as a
real-world app. Remember 'Skeleton'? It actually worked as a contact
manager and provided a lot of useful examples of coding. I've thought about
pulling the equivalent of this out of my main database and making it
stand-alone. Seems to me it could fulfill a similar purpose - plus some
sort of contact/partner/people management is core to many business
applications.

I've also got a simpler database I use for research projects and genealogy.
I think I may re-develop this one in v14 (because it is fairly simple w/o a
lot of tables) as a way to teach myself the new program. That's another one
that could be useful right out of the gate and demonstrate numerous
techniques.

Foundation was really useful when Dave wrote it. I think, though, the
fundamental idea of a universal starting place for any kind of 4D app
itself turns into a really complicated endeavour. Personally I think the
idea of 'modules' of code works better. Components are good for thoroughly
discrete tasks and modules are good for classes of tasks.


On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Walt Nelson (Manila)
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi Kirk.
>
> Yes, we know by now that 4D is amazing with technology, but they are lousy
> at marketing. One thing they totally don't "get" is how important it is to
> provide at least one complete and powerful example of how to use 4D in the
> real world.
>
> "If it is to be, it's up to me."
> So I have decided to release a product which a brand new 4D developer can
> use to "Hit the ground running." Foundation used to be the ticket, but it
> is a bit long in the tooth. Also, I notice that the Foundation example on
> the web site is v12; it does not appear that much effort is going into
> keeping up with the advances in 4D technology with variables, menus,
> localization, etc.
>
> So I have decided to release an "Application Development Environment" that
> goes far beyond Foundation to help a new developer hit the ground running.
> It also uses the latest 4D technology with the product, I will also offer a
> Certification Program for my product - something else that we have been
> suggesting for years, but it is clear will never happen from 4D itself.
>
> Stay tuned...
>
> Regards,
>
> Walt Nelson
> Walt Nelson & Associates
> [hidden email]
> (63) 918 803 8933
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Dec 29, 2013, at 5:34 AM, Kirk Brooks <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Walt,
> > i'm back from some vacation time and catching up on things so I just came
> > across your response.
> >
> > I don't disagree with anything you are saying. My concern about 4D in
> > general is that all the points you make have been just as true for the
> last
> > ten years at least and yet 4D continues to languish in obscurity and
> > continues to fail to attract many new customers. It's been pretty well
> > documented that the majority of 4D devs are guys like you and me who
> > started using it a long, long time ago for exactly the reasons you list.
> >
> > The company needs more than a great product and great engineering. Apple
> is
> > the obvious company to try to emulate. They had the best OS going for
> years
> > and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.
> >
> > --
> > Kirk Brooks
> > San Francisco, CA
> > =======================
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > 4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
> > your applications richer and faster
> > http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
> >
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> > Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> > Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> > **********************************************************************
> >
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D v13 is available now - with more than 200 new features to make
> your applications richer and faster
> http://www.4d.com/products/new.html
>
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************
>



--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
=======================

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Re: The competition

Jack des Bouillons
In reply to this post by KirkBrooks
Huh?  

Marketing didn't save Apple...great PRODUCTS saved Apple...and it wasn't the
Mac that did it.  The Mac was certainly the best O/S, but slick marketing
didn't move the market share...whole new types of products (iPod, iPhone,
iPad) put Apple where they are today...and I would submit that the success
of these products had less to do with their marketing campaigns and more to
do with their brilliance in design (not just the physical design)...

As always..in my opinion.

Jack des Bouillons

On 12/28/13 1:34 PM, "Kirk Brooks" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> They had the best OS going for years
> and nearly died until they got their marketing act together.



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