Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
18 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Dave Nasralla
Hey All,

We back up our mac server in a variety of ways. One of the ways is
using TimeMachine (TM) which is set to  fire off every 4 hours.

Something I recently noticed is that if the modification date/time on
the datafile has, say, the current date/time, and I run a TM Backup,
the datafile is not included in the new backup.

If I "Enter Time Machine" and go to the last backup (which I just did)
it shows a modification date of the day before.

It seems like TM does not always detect changes to the datafile. What
am I missing? I thought TM was at the kernel level and always picked
up datafile changes.

Any insights would be appreciated.

dave

--
David Nasralla
Clean Air Engineering
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

madamov


> On 07.07.2016., at 16.22, Dave Nasralla <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hey All,
>
> We back up our mac server in a variety of ways. One of the ways is
> using TimeMachine (TM) which is set to  fire off every 4 hours.
>
> Something I recently noticed is that if the modification date/time on
> the datafile has, say, the current date/time, and I run a TM Backup,
> the datafile is not included in the new backup.
>
> If I "Enter Time Machine" and go to the last backup (which I just did)
> it shows a modification date of the day before.
>
> It seems like TM does not always detect changes to the datafile. What
> am I missing? I thought TM was at the kernel level and always picked
> up datafile changes.
>
>

Are you quitting your application so Time Machine can properly backup your data file? If you are not, your backup is useless.

Regards,

Milan


**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Dave Nasralla
Hi Milan,

I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying any type of backup is
useless (like Backblaze, Carbon Copy Cloner) if 4D Server is running
at the time of backup?

How do you backup your 4D Systems?

dave

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Milan Adamov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Are you quitting your application so Time Machine can properly backup your data file? If you are not, your backup is useless.
>
> Regards,
>
> Milan
>

--
David Nasralla
Clean Air Engineering
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Chip Scheide
In reply to this post by Dave Nasralla
not v15... but I have noticed that modified time/date of datafiles is
NOT what I would expect.
I *think* that the last modified time is changed only when the database
is closed, or maybe once or 3 times a day.

You could use 4D backup to create a local copy of the data (set it to
keep only 1 copy)
and THEN ™ would see it.

On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 08:22:20 -0600, Dave Nasralla wrote:

> Hey All,
>
> We back up our mac server in a variety of ways. One of the ways is
> using TimeMachine (TM) which is set to  fire off every 4 hours.
>
> Something I recently noticed is that if the modification date/time on
> the datafile has, say, the current date/time, and I run a TM Backup,
> the datafile is not included in the new backup.
>
> If I "Enter Time Machine" and go to the last backup (which I just did)
> it shows a modification date of the day before.
>
> It seems like TM does not always detect changes to the datafile. What
> am I missing? I thought TM was at the kernel level and always picked
> up datafile changes.
>
> Any insights would be appreciated.
>
> dave
>
> --
> David Nasralla
> Clean Air Engineering
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Dave Nasralla
Hi Chip,

If I see a date/time change on a file in the Finder on the Mac, I
would expect TM to detect the change (somewhere the system is seeing
it). That's what's throwing me off.  Carbon Copy Cloner seems to
always get it right.

Part of the issue is trying to determine the feasibility of cloud
solution backup of the data file. Our datafile is not huge (<4GB), but
I don't want to push it to the cloud every night.
We do clone the drive every night, have journal files on a separate
drive, and are trying to use Backblaze as a cloud solution.

d

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Chip Scheide <[hidden email]> wrote:

> not v15... but I have noticed that modified time/date of datafiles is
> NOT what I would expect.
> I *think* that the last modified time is changed only when the database
> is closed, or maybe once or 3 times a day.
>
> You could use 4D backup to create a local copy of the data (set it to
> keep only 1 copy)
> and THEN ™ would see it.
>
> On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 08:22:20 -0600, Dave Nasralla wrote:
>> Hey All,
>>
>> We back up our mac server in a variety of ways. One of the ways is
>> using TimeMachine (TM) which is set to  fire off every 4 hours.
>>
>> Something I recently noticed is that if the modification date/time on
>> the datafile has, say, the current date/time, and I run a TM Backup,
>> the datafile is not included in the new backup.
>>
>> If I "Enter Time Machine" and go to the last backup (which I just did)
>> it shows a modification date of the day before.
>>
>> It seems like TM does not always detect changes to the datafile. What
>> am I missing? I thought TM was at the kernel level and always picked
>> up datafile changes.
>>
>> Any insights would be appreciated.
>>
>> dave
>>
>> --
>> David Nasralla
>> Clean Air Engineering
>> **********************************************************************
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>> **********************************************************************
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************



--
David Nasralla
Clean Air Engineering
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Chip Scheide
for my 4D databases
I use 4D backup - to create a local copy of the datafile
then use 3rd party software to backup the computer (excluding the live
database)

On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 09:06:50 -0600, Dave Nasralla wrote:

> Hi Chip,
>
> If I see a date/time change on a file in the Finder on the Mac, I
> would expect TM to detect the change (somewhere the system is seeing
> it). That's what's throwing me off.  Carbon Copy Cloner seems to
> always get it right.
>
> Part of the issue is trying to determine the feasibility of cloud
> solution backup of the data file. Our datafile is not huge (<4GB), but
> I don't want to push it to the cloud every night.
> We do clone the drive every night, have journal files on a separate
> drive, and are trying to use Backblaze as a cloud solution.
>
> d
>
> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Chip Scheide
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> not v15... but I have noticed that modified time/date of datafiles is
>> NOT what I would expect.
>> I *think* that the last modified time is changed only when the database
>> is closed, or maybe once or 3 times a day.
>>
>> You could use 4D backup to create a local copy of the data (set it to
>> keep only 1 copy)
>> and THEN ™ would see it.
>>
>> On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 08:22:20 -0600, Dave Nasralla wrote:
>>> Hey All,
>>>
>>> We back up our mac server in a variety of ways. One of the ways is
>>> using TimeMachine (TM) which is set to  fire off every 4 hours.
>>>
>>> Something I recently noticed is that if the modification date/time on
>>> the datafile has, say, the current date/time, and I run a TM Backup,
>>> the datafile is not included in the new backup.
>>>
>>> If I "Enter Time Machine" and go to the last backup (which I just did)
>>> it shows a modification date of the day before.
>>>
>>> It seems like TM does not always detect changes to the datafile. What
>>> am I missing? I thought TM was at the kernel level and always picked
>>> up datafile changes.
>>>
>>> Any insights would be appreciated.
>>>
>>> dave
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Nasralla
>>> Clean Air Engineering
>>> **********************************************************************
>>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>>> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>>> **********************************************************************
>> **********************************************************************
>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>> **********************************************************************
>
>
>
> --
> David Nasralla
> Clean Air Engineering
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

madamov
In reply to this post by Dave Nasralla

> On 07.07.2016., at 16.42, Dave Nasralla <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Milan,
>
> I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying any type of backup is
> useless (like Backblaze, Carbon Copy Cloner) if 4D Server is running
> at the time of backup?
>
> How do you backup your 4D Systems?
>
>

Yes, you don’t backup live data file using external tools, the right way is to use integarted 4D Backup and then use external tools to backup .4BK and journal files if you want additional copy. You can even run scripts to launch those apps from 4D after the backup is finished.

Reasons should be obvious:

- there might be some data in 4D cache that is not written to disk yet
- while Time machine is still saving last few meagabytes of data file, 4D might write changes t orecords that are stored at the beginning of data file resulting in corrupted data file

Regards,

Milan

**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Tim Nevels-2
In reply to this post by Dave Nasralla
On Jul 7, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Dave Nasralla wrote:

> I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying any type of backup is
> useless (like Backblaze, Carbon Copy Cloner) if 4D Server is running
> at the time of backup?

I’ll jump in on this one. When 4D Server has a data file open there is no GUARANTEE that if you make a copy or backup of the data file is 100% complete and accurate. Could be data in the data cache still in memory that has not been written to the data file. And if the backup occurs at the exact same time the data cache is flushing you will most likely end of with a bad backup copy. Doing a backup in the middle of a data cache flush is not a good idea. Would you agree with that?

Past experience show that in MOST cases a backup of an open data file will give you a usable copy of the data file. That’s because you usually get lucky and a data cache flush did not happen during the backup of the data file, and all the other internal 4D data file bitmaps and record allocation tables and other stuff stored in the cache are also fully flushed to disk.

Another issue is the way the Mac OS X file system and 4D interacts when 4D does disk writes to the open 4D data file. I don’t know the details but sometimes you can write info to an open file and not have the file system last modified date updated. For sure the last modified date is always updated when the data file is closed, which happens when you quit 4D Server.

The “proper” way to backup an open data file with 4D Server is to use 4D Backup. Then you back up the 4D Backup .4BK file after the backup has finish running. Again, you don’t want to copy the .4BK while 4D Backup is running. But if no 4D Backup is running, then you can safely copy the .4BK and you are GUARANTEED to have a good copy of your data file after you do a restore of that 4D Backup file.  

Another way to put it… you are playing Russian Roulette backing up an open 4D data file.

Tim

********************************************
Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
[hidden email]
********************************************

**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Justin Carr-2
In reply to this post by madamov
On 8 Jul 2016, at 1:24 am, Milan Adamov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yes, you don’t backup live data file using external tools, the right way is to use integarted 4D Backup and then use external tools to backup .4BK and journal files if you want additional copy. You can even run scripts to launch those apps from 4D after the backup is finished.
>
> Reasons should be obvious:
>
> - there might be some data in 4D cache that is not written to disk yet
> - while Time machine is still saving last few meagabytes of data file, 4D might write changes t orecords that are stored at the beginning of data file resulting in corrupted data file


As well as ending up with a corrupt copy of your data, there's also the fact that TimeMachine (or any other form of copying of an open 4D data file) can corrupt your real data file. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen that happen.

Regards
Justin Carr
Genie Solutions

**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Dave Nasralla
Hi Justin,

I can't speak for other software, but we have been using Time Machine
on our Mac Server since it first came out. This is a server running 5
instances of 4D Server and have not had issues.

The power/elegance of Time Machine is that it is efficient (and free).
If a user calls up and says "I'd like to see a snap shot of the data
on Dec 31st of last year", within 5 minutes I can have that snapshot
restored and running on a second server. It's been very helpful for us
- but we don't rely on it as our only backup.

(Side note: our datafile are not large - < 5GB. I can't speak for
larger setups.)

Also, the reason for this post is that Time Machine is odd... It seems
to only recognize and backup the datafile once a day, even if I have
it running every 4 hours and the modification times are continually
updated.... That was the start of this thread.

dave

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Justin Carr
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8 Jul 2016, at 1:24 am, Milan Adamov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, you don’t backup live data file using external tools, the right way is to use integarted 4D Backup and then use external tools to backup .4BK and journal files if you want additional copy. You can even run scripts to launch those apps from 4D after the backup is finished.
>>
>> Reasons should be obvious:
>>
>> - there might be some data in 4D cache that is not written to disk yet
>> - while Time machine is still saving last few meagabytes of data file, 4D might write changes t orecords that are stored at the beginning of data file resulting in corrupted data file
>
>
> As well as ending up with a corrupt copy of your data, there's also the fact that TimeMachine (or any other form of copying of an open 4D data file) can corrupt your real data file. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen that happen.
>
> Regards
> Justin Carr
> Genie Solutions
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************



--
David Nasralla
Clean Air Engineering
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Justin Carr-2
On 9 Jul 2016, at 2:10 am, Dave Nasralla <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Justin,
>
> I can't speak for other software, but we have been using Time Machine
> on our Mac Server since it first came out. This is a server running 5
> instances of 4D Server and have not had issues.
>
> The power/elegance of Time Machine is that it is efficient (and free).
> If a user calls up and says "I'd like to see a snap shot of the data
> on Dec 31st of last year", within 5 minutes I can have that snapshot
> restored and running on a second server. It's been very helpful for us
> - but we don't rely on it as our only backup.
>
> (Side note: our datafile are not large - < 5GB. I can't speak for
> larger setups.)
>
> Also, the reason for this post is that Time Machine is odd... It seems
> to only recognize and backup the datafile once a day, even if I have
> it running every 4 hours and the modification times are continually
> updated.... That was the start of this thread.

Hi Dave

We have over 3500 4D servers out there, many with data files larger than 5GB so I guess we have a much larger sample size. Maybe you've just been lucky? I can tell you for sure that Time Machine has corrupted active data files at many of our client sites and I for one would never let it near a live 4D data file. As others have said it is much safer to let it backup a 4D backup.

cheers
Justin
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Keith Culotta ns
It has been mentioned in a couple of posts that Time Machine corrupts a "live system", or "active data file".  Is it the backup that is getting corrupted or is the actively running data file getting corrupted during a Time Machine pass?

Keith - CDI

> On Jul 10, 2016, at 5:36 PM, Justin Carr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 9 Jul 2016, at 2:10 am, Dave Nasralla <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Justin,
>>
>> I can't speak for other software, but we have been using Time Machine
>> on our Mac Server since it first came out. This is a server running 5
>> instances of 4D Server and have not had issues.
>>
>> The power/elegance of Time Machine is that it is efficient (and free).
>> If a user calls up and says "I'd like to see a snap shot of the data
>> on Dec 31st of last year", within 5 minutes I can have that snapshot
>> restored and running on a second server. It's been very helpful for us
>> - but we don't rely on it as our only backup.
>>
>> (Side note: our datafile are not large - < 5GB. I can't speak for
>> larger setups.)
>>
>> Also, the reason for this post is that Time Machine is odd... It seems
>> to only recognize and backup the datafile once a day, even if I have
>> it running every 4 hours and the modification times are continually
>> updated.... That was the start of this thread.
>
> Hi Dave
>
> We have over 3500 4D servers out there, many with data files larger than 5GB so I guess we have a much larger sample size. Maybe you've just been lucky? I can tell you for sure that Time Machine has corrupted active data files at many of our client sites and I for one would never let it near a live 4D data file. As others have said it is much safer to let it backup a 4D backup.
>
> cheers
> Justin
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************

**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Dave Nasralla
In reply to this post by Justin Carr-2
Hi Justin,

You have a huge install base. I take it you probably found out by
turning off time machine and the corruption ended?

With that many servers, do you have a standard install scenario? For
example, do you have standard time you "Flush Data Buffers", like the
20 seconds 4D has recommended?

dave

On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Justin Carr
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 9 Jul 2016, at 2:10 am, Dave Nasralla <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Justin,
>>
>> I can't speak for other software, but we have been using Time Machine
>> on our Mac Server since it first came out. This is a server running 5
>> instances of 4D Server and have not had issues.
>>
>> The power/elegance of Time Machine is that it is efficient (and free).
>> If a user calls up and says "I'd like to see a snap shot of the data
>> on Dec 31st of last year", within 5 minutes I can have that snapshot
>> restored and running on a second server. It's been very helpful for us
>> - but we don't rely on it as our only backup.
>>
>> (Side note: our datafile are not large - < 5GB. I can't speak for
>> larger setups.)
>>
>> Also, the reason for this post is that Time Machine is odd... It seems
>> to only recognize and backup the datafile once a day, even if I have
>> it running every 4 hours and the modification times are continually
>> updated.... That was the start of this thread.
>
> Hi Dave
>
> We have over 3500 4D servers out there, many with data files larger than 5GB so I guess we have a much larger sample size. Maybe you've just been lucky? I can tell you for sure that Time Machine has corrupted active data files at many of our client sites and I for one would never let it near a live 4D data file. As others have said it is much safer to let it backup a 4D backup.
>
> cheers
> Justin
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************



--
David Nasralla
Clean Air Engineering
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Justin Carr-2
On 12 Jul 2016, at 6:15 am, Dave Nasralla <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Justin,
>
> You have a huge install base. I take it you probably found out by
> turning off time machine and the corruption ended?

Hi Dave

Exactly. Now when a client calls with data corruption on a Mac server one of the first things we check is Time Machine. If it's running and doesn't have an exception for the 4DD and 4DIndx, we add the exception, ensure they have another valid backup mechanism and voila, the corruption stops.

> With that many servers, do you have a standard install scenario? For
> example, do you have standard time you "Flush Data Buffers", like the
> 20 seconds 4D has recommended?

We leave those at the 20 secs recommended by 4D. We have enabled the User Settings so sites can customise their cache settings, change ports, etc.

Cheers
Justin
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Justin Carr-2
In reply to this post by Keith Culotta ns
On 11 Jul 2016, at 10:59 pm, Keith Culotta <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It has been mentioned in a couple of posts that Time Machine corrupts a "live system", or "active data file".  Is it the backup that is getting corrupted or is the actively running data file getting corrupted during a Time Machine pass?

Hi Keith

It is the actively running data file.

Cheers
Justin
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Dave Nasralla
Hey All,

Thanks to everyone that participated in the discussion.

FWIW - Here is a quick followup.

I can probably think of a few reasons why we have not had issues with
Time Machine (TM).
 - Our datafiles are not large
 - TM is set for every 4 hours (not every hour)
 - The systems have 20-30 users (not a lot) each
 - Our "Flush Buffers" was set to minutes and not seconds

Having said that, Justin has some good data/statistics to draw from,
so we will be:
 - turning off TM for the active drive
 - still have Carbon Copy Cloner run in the evenings when there are no
active users.
 - TM will backup the clone and journal drives (for us, having snap
shots of the datafiles is still really nice!)
 - 4D Backup will, of course, continue to run - probably once a night
before the clone.
 - I'll write code to copy the 4D Backup file once a week to a folder
that goes to the cloud on the weekends - the journal files will go to
the cloud everyday.

We used to run a mirrored raid for the active data drive until we went
to SSDs - which are harder to raid in a cost effective many. Now we
clone instead.

I also noticed no one mentioned corrupted journal files, which seems
reasonable since all operations are an append to the file.

Of course, you monitor and see what happens and then adjust!

Thanks again,

dave

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Justin Carr
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11 Jul 2016, at 10:59 pm, Keith Culotta <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> It has been mentioned in a couple of posts that Time Machine corrupts a "live system", or "active data file".  Is it the backup that is getting corrupted or is the actively running data file getting corrupted during a Time Machine pass?
>
> Hi Keith
>
> It is the actively running data file.
>
> Cheers
> Justin
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************



--
David Nasralla
Clean Air Engineering
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Arnaud de Montard
>
> Le 12 juil. 2016 à 19:10, Dave Nasralla <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> [...]
> - still have Carbon Copy Cloner run in the evenings when there are no
> active users.

Stored procedures can act like active users…

--
Arnaud de Montard


**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time Machine on Mac not detecting Data File Changes (v15.2 on Mac OS 10.10.5)

Dave Nasralla
 Right. In general, I have control over when those run.

dave

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 1:57 PM Arnaud de Montard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >
> > Le 12 juil. 2016 à 19:10, Dave Nasralla <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> >
> > [...]
> > - still have Carbon Copy Cloner run in the evenings when there are no
> > active users.
>
> Stored procedures can act like active users…
>
> --
> Arnaud de Montard
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
> Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
> Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
> **********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
**********************************************************************