Website development path

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Website development path

Keith Goebel
Hi all.
Since our Java/Flash based website stopped working (something about Java not supporting ODBC anymore), our web developer is looking for the "best" option for a re-write in something else.
The question is what?

Apart from using Wakanda and 4D Mobile, or php, what other models are you guys using?
- are you using SQL to access the 4D data?
- if so, what tool(s) do you use to develop it with?
- what web server as the front end (Apache, NGINX, other)?

A fairly big ask I know...
TIA, Keith

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RE: Website development path

Justin Will
Take a look at what Rob has done with the new NTK, it's pretty slick.  It lets you develop with 4D in a very NodeJS/Express style using javascript server side.  It would work really well with website developers that don't know 4D but understand NodeJS and Express.

Thanks
Justin Will

-----Original Message-----
From: 4D_Tech [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Keith Goebel
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 5:41 AM
To: 4D Tech Mailing List Technical <[hidden email]>
Subject: Website development path

Hi all.
Since our Java/Flash based website stopped working (something about Java not supporting ODBC anymore), our web developer is looking for the "best" option for a re-write in something else.
The question is what?

Apart from using Wakanda and 4D Mobile, or php, what other models are you guys using?
- are you using SQL to access the 4D data?
- if so, what tool(s) do you use to develop it with?
- what web server as the front end (Apache, NGINX, other)?

A fairly big ask I know...
TIA, Keith

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RE: Website development path

Joshua Hunter
In reply to this post by Keith Goebel
We wrote a REST API in 4D and expose it with the built in web server.  The REST API serves up JSON docs formatted in Siren.  The API is documented in Swagger. On the front end we wrote an AngularJS application that talks to the REST API.

Advantages:
* If we wanted to we could implement the same API somewhere else and the front end would keep working. There isn't anything 4D-specific about the web app.
* Our customers can access the REST API directly and build their own tools (and a few of them are!).

Disadvantages:
* Creating a REST API in 4D is time consuming. There aren't any tools/frameworks to make this happen or to automatically generate documentation, etc.

I found these two books to be very helpful:
AngularJS Up and Running: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920033486.do
RESTful Web APIs: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920028468.do

Joshua Hunter
[hidden email]
(425)673-1974
www.dwdev.com
Dataworks Development, Inc.
Providing secure and configurable data management solutions for research and clinical labs since 1987.


-----Original Message-----
From: 4D_Tech [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Keith Goebel
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 3:41 AM
To: 4D Tech Mailing List Technical
Subject: Website development path

Hi all.
Since our Java/Flash based website stopped working (something about Java not supporting ODBC anymore), our web developer is looking for the "best" option for a re-write in something else.
The question is what?

Apart from using Wakanda and 4D Mobile, or php, what other models are you guys using?
- are you using SQL to access the 4D data?
- if so, what tool(s) do you use to develop it with?
- what web server as the front end (Apache, NGINX, other)?

A fairly big ask I know...
TIA, Keith

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Re: Website development path

Neil Dennis-3
In reply to this post by Keith Goebel
One approach I have seriously considered, especially given my work on hybrid mobile applications is this.

Single Page HTML

        JavaScript/JQuery AJAX calls to 4D
        4D Builds a C_Object Stringify it and returns it to AJAX call
        JavaScript gets the Stringifiy’d object and Calls Parse to turn it into a JavaScript Object
        JavaScript uses JQuery to build the page and display the data.

This is the way to get hybrid mobile applications to work, it could work just the same for “real” web pages.

Neil

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GreaText - Designing Software for the Way You Work
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Re: Website development path

KirkBrooks
I'll give a plus 1 to this strategy too.

Tim Penner wrote a great tech note <http://kb.4d.com/assetid=77177>
demonstrating how to easily move data between 4D and a web page using
c-obj/JSON that's also helpful.

Personally I like Bootstrap for optimizing for mobile but there are lots of
others. Mustache and Handlebars are very helpful for manipulating JSON data
on a web page.

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Neil Dennis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One approach I have seriously considered, especially given my work on
> hybrid mobile applications is this.
>
> Single Page HTML
>
>         JavaScript/JQuery AJAX calls to 4D
>         4D Builds a C_Object Stringify it and returns it to AJAX call
>         JavaScript gets the Stringifiy’d object and Calls Parse to turn it
> into a JavaScript Object
>         JavaScript uses JQuery to build the page and display the data.
>
> This is the way to get hybrid mobile applications to work, it could work
> just the same for “real” web pages.
>


--
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
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Re: Website development path

Christophe Flament
In reply to this post by Keith Goebel
Hi:

I have done several web interfaces for 4D databases from the time of ".4Dlink" and ".4D".

My current solution is as follow:

4D side:
- Sync some 4D tables and fields with a MySQL database using MyConnect Plugin from Pluggers Software - Sync both directions.

Web site:
- All is hosted online with a host provider - I am currently using inmotionhosting.com with great satisfaction
- 4D sync to a MySQL database
- The web interface use php with the wonderful modern framework Laravel and the javascript Vue.js

This is plain web standard configuration.

The only challenge I found is inherent to synchronizing 2 databases - 4D and MySQL: keeping 2 record IDs and finding out where are the most recent modified records.

If you need more info you can contact me at cflament@pongaconsulting.com

Thanks.



Christophe Flament
Ponga Consulting - New York
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Re: Website development path

Sujit Shah
There was a demonstration of Angular Wakanda using Bootstrap Admin
templates. Was there a tech note on this?

I would much prefer to have a ready UI.
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Re: Website development path

Sujit Shah
Keith

Also have a look at


https://www.quora.com/What-is-your-choice-of-technology-stack-for-full-stack-web-development-in-2017

and related questions for a broader view



On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Sujit Shah <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There was a demonstration of Angular Wakanda using Bootstrap Admin
> templates. Was there a tech note on this?
>
> I would much prefer to have a ready UI.
>
>
>


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Re: Website development path

Paul Dennis
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Keith Goebel
I use Graham's Lightning component its great and V4 gives you a choice of jquery or bootstrap. Rob's new Ntk is also very interesting but lightning is easier from 4D perspective. I havent come across anything it cant do. For public facing front end web I use joomla cms and intergrate using rob's mysql plugin. You could use any mysql based cms for this.
Paul
http://www.grahamlangley.co.uk/
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Re: Website development path

Tom DeMeo
In reply to this post by Keith Goebel
Hi,


You will need:

1. A server side framework -  use Active4D!  This will allow you to write your server side code in the 4D language (plus some nice improvements and web specific commands) in external files instead of 4D methods. It also has the best session management of any of your options.

2. A client side framework - There are many, many choices. Keep it as simple as possible. I suggest Kendo UI (jQuery version ). It provides really nice client side datasource scheme with built in data-binding templating, so you don’t need anything MVC frameworks, like Angular or React for typical page building, but you can use those schemes if you want to. It is well designed, well documented and fast. Once you define your datasources in Kendo and bind them to widgets, much of the work of handling data events, making requests to the server, and updating the widgets on the page with the response is automated. Its a nice architecture.

3. Web server as front end - if you don’t need to, don’t complicate your design. Just use 4D. If you have to, NGINX is somewhat simpler to deal with than Apache, but both are good solutions.


Don’t use 4D tags or inject code into pages server side. Fetch any data your page needs using AJAX.



Tom DeMeo

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Re: Website development path

Tom Swenson
In reply to this post by Keith Goebel
The new NTK has some pretty nice stuff.

But here’s a sardonic read if you’re tempted explore other paths…. ;-)

https://hackernoon.com/how-it-feels-to-learn-javascript-in-2016-d3a717dd577f

Me, I’m liking Nativescript a lot lately.




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RE: Website development path

Justin Will
In reply to this post by Tom DeMeo
The main downside I see right now to using Active4D is that it does not allow you to take advantage of pre-emptive threads in v16.  This will hopefully change at some point.  With that said A4D is a great product and has been a go-to for me in web work many times.

Thanks
Justin Will

-----Original Message-----
From: 4D_Tech [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom DeMeo
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 8:18 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Website development path

Hi,


You will need:

1. A server side framework -  use Active4D!  This will allow you to write your server side code in the 4D language (plus some nice improvements and web specific commands) in external files instead of 4D methods. It also has the best session management of any of your options.

2. A client side framework - There are many, many choices. Keep it as simple as possible. I suggest Kendo UI (jQuery version ). It provides really nice client side datasource scheme with built in data-binding templating, so you don’t need anything MVC frameworks, like Angular or React for typical page building, but you can use those schemes if you want to. It is well designed, well documented and fast. Once you define your datasources in Kendo and bind them to widgets, much of the work of handling data events, making requests to the server, and updating the widgets on the page with the response is automated. Its a nice architecture.

3. Web server as front end - if you don’t need to, don’t complicate your design. Just use 4D. If you have to, NGINX is somewhat simpler to deal with than Apache, but both are good solutions.


Don’t use 4D tags or inject code into pages server side. Fetch any data your page needs using AJAX.



Tom DeMeo

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Re: Website development path

aparajita
In reply to this post by Keith Goebel

> 3. Web server as front end - if you don’t need to, don’t complicate your design. Just use 4D. If you have to, NGINX is somewhat simpler to deal with than Apache, but both are good solutions.

Or use NTK. Active4D comes with shell code that works either with 4D’s web server or NTK. Unfortunately 4D’s web server has  consistently been buggy over the years.

All the best,

  - Aparajita


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Re: Website development path

aparajita
In reply to this post by Keith Goebel

> The main downside I see right now to using Active4D is that it does not allow you to take advantage of pre-emptive threads in v16.  This will hopefully change at some point.  With that said A4D is a great product and has been a go-to for me in web work many times.

Let’s be fair here; *no* plugins can take advantage of pre-emptive threads, because 4D has not given us the ability to do so. And even when they can, any 4D code that wants to use a plugin pre-emptively will probably have to be rewritten, because you can’t use interprocess variables or non-thread safe commands *anywhere* in the entire call chain.

All the best,

 - Aparajita


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Re: Website development path

Keith Goebel
In reply to this post by Keith Goebel
Thanks to everyone who replied.
Apart from recommended research to be done, a summary of a recommended web system is:
- Angular Wakanda using Bootstrap Admin
- Graham's Lightning component  (needs 4D developer = trying to avoid)
- use Active4D  (needs 4D developer = trying to avoid)
- NTK  (needs 4D developer?)
- use NGINX  or Apache server + use AJAX to fetch data from 4D (I thought AJAX was no longer in favour…?)

Is nobody using SQL to fetch the data and serve it via some other interface?
Cheers, Keith
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RE: Website development path

Dennis, Neil-2
In reply to this post by aparajita
> Let’s be fair here; *no* plugins can take advantage of pre-emptive threads, because 4D has not
> given us the ability to do so. And even when they can, any 4D code that wants to use a plugin
> pre-emptively will probably have to be rewritten, because you can’t use interprocess variables
> or non-thread safe commands *anywhere* in the entire call chain.

Yep, so forward thinking solutions should probably use 4D code such as the C_Object with Stringify and thread safe commands.

 OR

Alternatively wait for the ability to create thread safe plugins.

For new development my money currently is on a 4D solution with no plugins required  :)


Neil







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Re: Website development path

Lee Hinde
In reply to this post by Keith Goebel
Kieth; those recommendations touch on different aspects of the project:
front-end, back-end and web server.

If you want to serve data from 4d, you're going to need a 4d developer,
regardless. Even if it's to migrate the data to a new system.

AJAX is still in favor.



On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 12:13 PM, Keith Goebel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who replied.
> Apart from recommended research to be done, a summary of a recommended web
> system is:
> - Angular Wakanda using Bootstrap Admin
> - Graham's Lightning component  (needs 4D developer = trying to avoid)
> - use Active4D  (needs 4D developer = trying to avoid)
> - NTK  (needs 4D developer?)
> - use NGINX  or Apache server + use AJAX to fetch data from 4D (I thought
> AJAX was no longer in favour…?)
>
> Is nobody using SQL to fetch the data and serve it via some other
> interface?
> Cheers, Keith
> **********************************************************************
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Re: Website development path

Balinder Walia
Lee/Keith,

We have had this dilemma for long now.

Enough is enough! We just have to make a start to solve this very problem.

I am thinking to release open source component soon which will allow any
developer to drop the component in any 4D project and with little
configuration (no coding) get data out of 4D in json. What we need is just
a way to get the bloody data out of 4d in the most secure way!

Remember Microservices and APIs are very important part of any system
design now a days as it is the future. Well! The present as well.

Component should be optional to use NTK or simply just 4D http web server.

Does that make sense? Who is in to try it?

So let's do it!

Balinder

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 at 20:26, Lee Hinde <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Kieth; those recommendations touch on different aspects of the project:
>
> front-end, back-end and web server.
>
>
>
> If you want to serve data from 4d, you're going to need a 4d developer,
>
> regardless. Even if it's to migrate the data to a new system.
>
>
>
> AJAX is still in favor.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 12:13 PM, Keith Goebel <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Thanks to everyone who replied.
>
> > Apart from recommended research to be done, a summary of a recommended
> web
>
> > system is:
>
> > - Angular Wakanda using Bootstrap Admin
>
> > - Graham's Lightning component  (needs 4D developer = trying to avoid)
>
> > - use Active4D  (needs 4D developer = trying to avoid)
>
> > - NTK  (needs 4D developer?)
>
> > - use NGINX  or Apache server + use AJAX to fetch data from 4D (I thought
>
> > AJAX was no longer in favour…?)
>
> >
>
> > Is nobody using SQL to fetch the data and serve it via some other
>
> > interface?
>
> > Cheers, Keith
>
> > **********************************************************************
>
> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>
> > FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>
> > Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
>
> > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech
>
> > Unsub:  mailto:[hidden email]
>
> > **********************************************************************
>
> >
>
> **********************************************************************
>
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RE: Website development path

Dennis, Neil-2
> I am thinking to release open source component soon which will allow
> any developer to drop the component in any 4D project and with little
> configuration (no coding) get data out of 4D in json. What we need is just>
> a way to get the bloody data out of 4d in the most secure way!

Do you mean something like the "Selection to JSON" command?

Neil







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RE: Website development path

Justin Will
In reply to this post by aparajita
I am not trying to be unfair.  Just trying to point out that 4D has limited plugins at this time from running pre-emptively so consider that when choosing your platform.  

Thanks
Justin

 
-----Original Message-----
From: 4D_Tech [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aparajita Fishman
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 1:35 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Website development path


> The main downside I see right now to using Active4D is that it does not allow you to take advantage of pre-emptive threads in v16.  This will hopefully change at some point.  With that said A4D is a great product and has been a go-to for me in web work many times.

Let’s be fair here; *no* plugins can take advantage of pre-emptive threads, because 4D has not given us the ability to do so. And even when they can, any 4D code that wants to use a plugin pre-emptively will probably have to be rewritten, because you can’t use interprocess variables or non-thread safe commands *anywhere* in the entire call chain.

All the best,

 - Aparajita


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